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JOSEPH SMITH - PROPHECY
The first Prophet of the LDS Church.
This Topic surrounds prophecies made by or for Joseph Smith.
| Mormon have always placed a lot of emphasis on Joseph Smith's supposed Civil War prophecy ...the only thing they fail to take into account are the historical record and the facts.
In December 25, 1832, (keep this date in mind) Joseph Smith had this famous revelation...DandC 87:1 reads "VERILY, thus saith the Lord concerning the that will come to pass, beginning at the rebellion of South Carolina, which will eventually terminate in the death and misery of many souls;"
Modern Mormons take this to suggest in hindsight that Joseph Smith was referring to the Civil War, which was still many many years away.... BUT the truth is that South Carolina had for many years been a hotbed of rebellion and had made many threats regarding its sovrenty over the federal government. In 1831, there was a slave rebellion, but it was successfully put down. In 1832* (remember this date?) President Jackson signed into law a new tariff that the S.C. legislature felt was unjust, the state threatened to rebel. In response to South Carolina's threat, Jackson sent seven small naval vessels and a man-of-war to Charleston in November 1832. Interestingly enough Joseph Smith had his revelation only 1 month later...was he a prophet...or an avid reader of the newspaper?
So the sad fact is...ANY Mormon or citizen of the United States could have made that broad prediction regarding a rebellion in South Carolina....
Initially the revelation was taken out of the DandC because it never happend as predicted. People began to quest it's authenticity. When the Cvil War did in fact happen the verse was inserted or re-inserted back into the DandC.
Also note DandC 87:3:
"For behold, the Southern States shall be divided against the Northern States, and the Southern States will call on other nations, even the nation of Great Britain, as it is called, and they shall also call upon other nations, in order to defend them selves against other nations; and then war shall be poured out upon all nations." Emphasis added.
A review of American history will show that the Confederacy did ask Great Britain and France for assistance, and were refused. The Civil War was not "poured out upon all nations", and did not become a World War. So even with his post hoc prophecy he got it wrong by continuing to embellish the story.
If God really wanted to give Joseph Smith some inside info on the Civil War, why didn't he just say "Lo, heed well my words, my servant Joseph: In 1861 there will be a war between the Northern and Southern states, it will last four years, and 500,000 people will die. The North is going to win. Oh, and by the way, I'd stay away from Carthage, Illinois if I were you."
"LDS attachment to the Constitution has been further encouraged by an important oral tradition deriving from a statement attributed to Joseph Smith, according to which the Constitution would "hang by a thread" and be rescued, if at all, only with the help of the Saints. Church President John Taylor seemed to go further when he prophesied, "When the people shall have torn to shreds the Constitution of the United States the Elders of Israel will be found holding it up to the nations of the earth and proclaiming liberty and equal rights to all men" (JD 21:8). "
That last line is interesting considering how the church has fought tooth and nail to prevent gays from having the right to marry or even enter into civil unions and fought against the ERA. I guess it only refers to the liberty and equal rights of all heterosexual men??
| May 18 1843
"I prophesy in the name of the Lord God of Israel, unless the United States redress the wrongs committed upon the Saints in the state of Missouri and punish the crimes committed by her officers that in a few years the government will be utterly overthrown and wasted, and there will not be so much as a potsherd left." -- Joseph Smith, prophet of God and founder of the Mormon church
FARMS apologist's typical response follows:
1) Jospeh Smith didn't say this. It was something a scribe mistakenly wrote down. We don't have any way of knowing if Joseph Smith said this or not.
2) A "few" years could mean millenia if you're looking at if from an eternal perspective. After all one day on Kolob equals a 1,000 years here on earth.
3) He was speaking as a man at the time.
4) A potsherd is a fragment of broken pottery and we can't really know whether or not any pottery and its relation to the US government is indeed left and just how the context of the revelation came to fruition.
5) The government known then has indeed been overthrown. If you were to compare the government we have now, the way it works, the laws and regulations by which we abide, it's completely different than the one that existed back then. It's a true testament to God's justice.
| "Do you think that the nullification convention held in November 1832 by South Carolina may have had an influence on Joseph Smith's prediction? I think so.
In November 1832 a South Carolina delegation defiantly nullified the federal 1828 and 1832 tarriffs. South Carolina immediately prepared for a military showdown with the federal government. South Carolina regiments were organized and volunteers were gathered together to fight the federal government. The issue was temporarily diffused with the compromise of 1833, but the tension was only postponed. (Secret and Sacred, The Diaries of James Hummond, a Southern Slaveholder, edited by Carol Bleser, Oxford University Press, 1988)."
"South Carolina Threatens to Secede from the United States
November 24, 1832
At this time there are many national troubles, especially between the government of the United States and the state of South Carolina. President Andrew Jackson's protective tariff has been opposed by South Carolina; and on Nov. 24, 1832, the legislature of South Carolina declares that as of Feb. 1, 1833, Jackson's tariff will no longer apply to that state, and that they will secede if President Jackson tries to enforce the law. On Dec. 10 President Jackson issues a proclamation against South Carolina and threatens to march forty thousand government troops against them. During this crisis, on Christmas day 1832, Joseph receives a prophecy about the Civil War.
Source: J. Christopher Conkling, A Joseph Smith Chronology, Deseret Book Company, 1979."
Rest assured that Joseph Smith was a liar and a cheat first, last, and always. He did not get ANYTHING right of his own volition.
| || Wall Street Journal Column On Joseph Smith White Horse Prophecy - Will A Mormon Candidate Fulfill Joseph Smith's Prophecy? |
Monday, Nov 6, 2006, at 10:38 AM
Original Author(s): Phantomshadow
Topic: JOSEPH SMITH - PROPHECY -Link To MC Article-
| ↑ |
| The last page of the Nov 3 Wall Street Journal (W13) has a column by Carrie Sheffield under Houses of Worship. "White Horse in the White House" discusses Mormon support for Mitt Romney. "Some even see in him the potential to fulfill a 160-premonition by Mormon founder Joseph Smith, known as the 'White Horse Prophesy." (The WSJ is available online to paid subscribers.)
A couple of paragraphs explain the 1843 prediction that one day the US Constitution would hang like a thread, the land would be without a Supreme Government, and every specie of wickedness would be rampant. It would then be up to the Mormon people, symbolized by a White Horse, to ride in and save the republic from collapsing. (As we know, JS himself ran for president in 1844.)
"Susan Easton Black, professor of church history and doctrine at [BYU . . . ] said the White Horse tale was originally publicized by two devout Mormon men seeking to make money off of the prophet's narrative. According to Mrs. Black, the men sold the prophecy in a pamphlet to early Utah pioneers."
According to Black, later retellings escalated the drama, but later Church prophets have toned down the prophecy, so that todays students frequently discuss the idea that the divinely inspired Constitution is under attack.
The column then discusses Utah politicians of both parties who felt inspired to run for office to save the country.
Quoting the last two paragraphs from the WSJ:
But the bottom line, according to Mrs. Black, is that the prophecy as a whole is false. She doesn't talk about it in her classes: 'We have more important things to discuss that are true." Indeed, LDS Church spokesman Mike Otterson is quick to point out the prophecy is not official canon. He says, "There may be some members of the church who think that in supporting a Mormon candidate and seeing the possibility of a Mormon president, there may be some sort of scriptural validation." But Mr. Otterson explains, 'It begins to take on almost a zealous tone that I find a little worrisome."
It has been some time since I left the church, so I don't know if the WH "prophecy" is as popular as it was in the '70s and early '80s. I do doubt that many of the zealous believers are going to find their way to the last page of the Weekend Journal, so I hope this article is reprinted elsewhere.
As Mr. Romney continues rising amount 2008 hopefuls, questions about the prophecy will continue to surface: Would Mormons see a Romney White House as a White Horse? "I have no idea," says Utah Republicans' Mr. Hartley. "And frankly, I would worry about anybody who thought they were fulfilling prophecy because the way I understand it, you don't seek after these things. You don't recognize it until it's probably already happened."
| "'Jerald and Sandra Tanner . . . printed W. W. Phelps' version of a little-known 1831 revelation . . . Dr. Leonard Arrington, [then-]Church Historian of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Salt Lake City, confirmed the existence of the Phelps copy. In a telephone conversation on June 13,1975, he stated that the revelation may be released for scholarly study sometime in the future, but not yet.'" ("In Defense of God," typed copy, page 334, footnote 23)
"[In 1977], . . . the Mormon scholar Donna Hill, finally published the important part about the Indians:
"'. . . For it is my will that, in time, ye should take unto you wives of the Lamanites and Nephites, that their posterity may become white, delightsome and just . . .'" ("Joseph Smith--The First Mormon," New York, 1977, p. 340)
Of course, there are some other reasons why this "revelation" was suppressed until recently:
*The standard apology given for the purpose of polygamy is that it served to "provide husbands for widows and children of dead Mormon men." At the time of this "revelation," no Mormon men had been killed by "persecution," and the Indian women Smith told his male disciples to "plural marry" certainly didn't need any white men to support them.
*Most of the Mormon men whom Smith intended to "plural marry" Indian women were already married to white women. It doesn't sound proper or logical to modern TBMs that Smith would have counseled those men to "plural marry" Indian women. It smacks of an attempt to commit cultural genocide.
Also, as I've pointed out before, Smith had an ulterior motive for his "revelation": He and Sidney Rigdon had staked out the Indian lands west of the Missouri River to be part of their "New Jerusalem." Far beyond their dream of a religious commune, their intention was to create an agriculture-based financial empire, enriching themselves by producing and selling goods to the Army troops at Fort Leavenworth and the traffic traversing the Missouri River.
So, Smith concocted his "Lamanite revelation", having his disciples "plural marry" Indian women, with the idea of making it legal (so he mistakenly thought) for those men to move onto Indian lands and begin securing property for the commune. But Smith and Rigdon's plot was foiled when government Indian agents told them to keep their disciples on their side of the river and to leave the Indians alone.
When researching Joseph Smith's motives, the first thing to do is follow the money.
| A particular episode in church history illustrates the character and thought pattern of Joseph Smith and his followers. This account was written by the apostle Orson F. Whitney in 1888. He was the editor of Heber Kimball's diaries and his biographer. It should be noted that when this was first published, polygamy was still in full swing.
“Before he would trust even Heber with the full secret, however, he put him to a test which few men would have been able to bear.
“It was no less than a requirement for him to surrender his wife, his beloved Vilate, and give her to Joseph in marriage!
“The astounding revelation well-nigh paralyzed him. He could hardly believe he had heard aright. Yet Joseph was solemnly in earnest. His next impulse was to spurn the proposition, and perhaps at that terrible moment a vague suspicion of the Prophet's motive and the divinity of the revelation, shot like a poisoned arrow through his soulů
“Three days he fasted and wept and prayed. Then, with a broken and a bleeding heart, but with soul self-mastered for the sacrifice, he led his darling wife to the Prophet's house and presented her to Joseph.
“It was enough-the heavens accepted the sacrifice. The will for the deed was taken, and 'accounted unto him for righteousness.' Joseph wept at this proof of devotion and embracing Heber, told him that was all that the Lord required. He had proved him, as a child of Abraham, that he would 'do the works of Abraham,' holding back nothing, but laying all upon the alter for God's glory.
“The Prophet joined the hands of the heroic and devoted pair, and then and there, by virtue of the sealing power and authority of the Holy Priesthood, Heber and Vilate Kimball were made husband and wife for all eternity. “
Orson F. Whitney, “Life of Heber C. Kimball (Bookcraft, 1945), p. 323-4
This passage is interesting for several reason first is Joseph Smith's terrible idea. If you wanted to test the loyalty of one of your lieutenants, can you think of a WORSE POSSIBLE WAY? You ask him to deliver his wife? If this failed (as it did for some others), then you have guaranteed to make an enemy. If you succeed, you have introduced a strange new dynamic and will forever overshadow your relationship and the relationship of the couple you are testing. Had Joseph been even the least bit inspired, even with common sense, he would have realized this is a bad idea through and through.
I do not know in what universe this would be considered a good test of virtue, but it seems inspired from the lowest depths of human intent. What does it illustrate about the thinking process of the one who passes the test? That they are willing to sacrifice their wife to their file leader shows a warped thinking and sense of duty.
It also is illustrative of the earlier church's attitudes towards women. They were obviously something of a commodity that could be traded, and passed around as a currency of loyalty. No where in the passage does Whitney even acknowledge that she is a person who might have feelings or a say in the matter.
That Heber passed the test showed that he failed the test that really mattered. That Joseph gave the test shows the depths of his depravity.
| || "If We Get Our Salvation, We Shall Have To Pass By The Prophet Joseph Smith; If We Enter Our Glory, It Will Be Through The Authority He Has Received. We Cannot Get Around Him" |
Thursday, Feb 15, 2007, at 09:56 AM
Original Author(s): Deconstructor
Topic: JOSEPH SMITH - PROPHECY -Link To MC Article-
| ↑ |
| "If we get our salvation, we shall have to pass by the Prophet Joseph Smith; if we enter our glory, it will be through the authority he has received. We cannot get around him. "
- 1988 Melchizedek Priesthood Study Guide, p. 142, Apostle George Q. Cannon quoted
"Our entire case as members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints rests on the validity of this glorious First Vision. ... Nothing on which we base our doctrine, nothing we teach, nothing we live by is of greater importance than this initial declaration. I submit that if Joseph Smith talked with God the Father and His Beloved Son, then all else of which he spoke is true. This is the hinge on which turns the gate that leads to the path of salvation and eternal life."
- Prophet Gordon B. Hinckley, Ensign Mag., Nov. 1998, pp.70-71
[There is] "no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth...no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God"
- Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190
"No man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith...every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are... [Joseph Smith] reigns there as supreme a being in his sphere, capacity, and calling, as God does in heaven. Many will exclaim–"Oh, that is very disagreeable! It is preposterous! We cannot bear the thought!" But it is true."
- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p.289-91
"He that confesseth not that Jesus has come in the flesh and sent Joseph Smith with the fullness of the Gospel to this generation, is not of God, but is anti-christ"
- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 9, p.312
"I tell you, Joseph holds the keys, and none of us can get into the celestial kingdom without passing by him. We have not got rid of him, but he stands there as the sentinel, holding the keys of the kingdom of God; and there are many of them beside him. I tell you, if we get past those who have mingled with us, and know us best, and have a right to know us best, probably we can pass all other sentinels as far as it is necessary, or as far as we may desire. But I tell you, the pinch will be with those that have mingled with us, stood next to us, weighed our spirits, tried us, and proven us: there will be a pinch, in my view, to get past them. The others, perhaps, will say, If brother Joseph is satisfied with you, you may pass. If it is all right with him, it is all right with me. Then if Joseph shall say to a man, or if brother Brigham say to a man, I forgive you your sins, "Whosoever sins ye remit they are remitted unto them;" if you who have suffered and felt the weight of transgression–if you have generosity enough to forgive the sinner, I will forgive him: you cannot have more generosity than I have. I have given you power to forgive sins, and when the Lord gives a gift, he does not take it back again."
- Apostle Orson Hyde, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p.154-155
"It is to be feared that in course of a century, some gifted man like Paul, some splendid orator, who will be able by his eloquence to attract crowds of the thousands who are ever ready to hear, and be carried away by, the sounding brass and tinkling cymbal of sparkling oratory, may command a hearing, may succeed in breathing a new life into this modern Mahometanism, and make the name of the martyred Joseph ring as loud, and stir the souls of men as much, as the mighty name of Christ itself. Sharon, Palmyra, Manchester, Kirtland, Far West, Adam-ondi-Ahman, Ramus. Nauvoo, and the Carthage Jail, may become holy and venerable names, places of classic interest, in another age; like Jerusalem, the Garden of Gethsemane, the Mount of Olives, and Mount Calvary to the Christian, and Mecca and Medina to the Turk."
- Prophet Brigham Young, History of the Church, Vol. 7, p.40-41
The church also has a history of bashing Christianity:
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