THE MORMON CURTAIN
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OBEDIENCE - PAY, PRAY, OBEY
Total Articles:
15
Mormonism is all about obedience. Mormons are continually told that they must obey the leaders of the LDS Church without question.
Recently talks were given by LDS Apostles that women were only allowed to wear one earring per ear. Earrings are not essential to salvation in the LDS Dogma - it is simply a level of control. Members are then counseled by LDS authority figures that anyone disobeying the earring commandment is not worthy as a potential spouse or friend.
Mormonism continually preaches obedience without question. This area contains those articles.
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Apparently, word is the COB has sent a letter stressing that brothers who attend SM and who could "potentially" be performing priesthood ordinances therein must be in white shirts, ties, and clean shaven. I don't know if this is rumor or not, but it wouldn't surprise me. I have not worn a white shirt or tie in about 4 years, and I know that I am the recipient of lots of raised eyebrows and shaking heads. Do you think this rumor is true? Have you heard anything?
This is old news. Over the past 20 years I have been told that men MUST wear white shirts (no pastels allowed) even when home teaching. In one ward, we women were chastised if we wore denim in any form, even skirts. Seems to me alot of unrighteous dominion and personal preferences. Gee, do you think the Saviour went about checking the fabrics that His followers wore? I think NOT! In what scripture where does it say that? Oh, that's right, the PTB make it up as it goes along and we have to conform because, even if they rule unjustly, the PTB have to answer for it later. In the meantime, don't think for yourself, do what you're told. AArrrggghhh! Rage against the machine.
The white shirt and tie has always been refered to as the uniform of the priesthood and it has been stongly encouraged by the church for men to wear it when performing priesthood ordinances and when attending meetings. It has never been an absolute requirement from COB but I have heard a few local authorities have made it a requirement.
I think it depends on the stake/ward you are in. Growing up my stake pres. was pretty strict (but a nice guy). He always said that all priesthood holders must wear white shirts and ties. If you wore a colored shirt, you could not participate in priesthood ordinances. When I visited different stakes on vacations, I was very surprised to see priests blessing the sacrament with colored or striped shirts. Oh, dear!
Veil workers must be clean shaven. Last year, one of our high councilors gave a talk where he went into depth about cutting off a mustache to work in the temple. It was pretty traumatic for him, he'd had the mustache for ~30 years. It was supposed to be a spiritual talk. I couldn't believe it, it cracked me up. I guess that means BY or John Taylor or any of those guys couldn't have gone to the temple :) ! Does anybody actually believe that God cares about this? Or white shirts? Or any of this bs? I became convinced a long time ago that God didn't care if people drank wine, etc., but we're left with it because Heber Grant had a bad day last century.
| I see that big-wigs are demanding more than ever that all people MUST have children, especially before the means to support them exist. I wonder if they have any clue what suffering they cause in such statements (do I really need to wonder?). When a man has to work two jobs just to barely make do, PLUS go to school 15 credit hours, he changes. No matter how good intended or kind-hearted that father is, he will eventually snap. He will either begin to isolate himself and resent his family, slipping into alcoholism, drug abuse, and other troubles, or he will lash out violently, beating and slandering his wife and children. Last time I checked, child endangerment is a serious crime. Nice to know big-wigs are doing their part to bless and encourage situations that harm children! Remember, families can be together forever!
- -
My cousin is pressuring her husband to have another baby right now. Her rationale, according to my grandmother, is that "the Church wants us to have as many children as we can."
Most of us on the board know that the CHI was changed a few years ago to say that the number of children a couple decides to have is a private matter between them and the Lord. But how many rank-and-file members know what the little, private Church Handbook says? VERY few.
Most members believe what the leaders tell them from the pulpit, and that message is loud and clear: Have more kids. Don't wait to finish your degree. Don't wait to get a better job. Don't wait, don't wait, don't wait.
My cousin's husband is doing his best to support the two kids they already have; he commutes an hour each way to get to his job. He doesn't want another mouth to feed. But according to my airhead cousin, her husband simply doesn't have enough faith.
Does Utah still lead the country in bankruptcies?
- -
They are already turning down people left and right who need church assistance! They should have learned from their past mistakes of insisting RM's get married within 6 months of returning home...and start their families immediately. That was a DISASTER! Too many (some say 50%) of marriages end in divorce (like mine), and where does that leave mama and all da babies??? On STATE welfare because the church is too fucking busy buying up all the property on the North Shore of Hawaii!
Might I also add...that I know a LOT of TBM childless couples. They "can't" get pregnant for one reason or another. I know many who are trying fertility treatments. What does this tell you??? God (ha...I mean the big-wigs) gave a commandment...yet there is no way to accomplish it? I went through this...and years of guilt...wondering what I had done wrong that I could NOT conceive! Well, I eventually did...but it was hell in the meantime.
SCREW their stupidass "advice/revelation/prophesy"...GROW A BRAIN and do what's RIGHT for YOU!
- -
It's easier to brainwash a baby than to retain an adult convert.
That's why there's that push for TBM's to marry at 19 for women and 21 for men, babies are easier to brainwash than the converts who leave when they see what they really joined. Also, "Every Sperm is Sacred..." Sorry, just watched Monty Python's Meaning of Life tonight and this made me think of that song.
Here's the Mormon version of that song:
"There are Jews in the world, there are Buddhists,
There are Hindus and Catholics and then,
There are followers of Mohammed, but I'm not one of them.
I'm a Latter-Day Mormon, have been since before I was born, and the one thing that's said about Mormons is they'll brainwash you as soon as you're warm...
You don't have to be a six footer, you don't have to have a big brain(actually it's better you don't), you don't have to have any clothes on, you're Mormon the moment dad came..."
(rest of song remains)
- -
My best friend had seven kids when it was obvious quite early on that they could not even afford two.
But they listened to the church,not limiting their family and hoping the expected blessings would come because of their obedience.
Yeah, guess what. They were MISERABLE. There was never enough money and they could not do anything with all those kids. Try feeding and clothing 9 people and forget about taking them to McDonalds or Disneyland, it is too expensive, especially when you also pay tithes.
Things got WORSE as the kids got older, forget about College. And the kids could not even get jobs during High School because the family never had decent running cars.
The girls got pregnant and married early, mostly to get out of the house. But all the kids were smart enough to have only 1-2 kids in their own lives, so for them it got better because they did not care to repeat the misery of their parents.
| The LDS First Presidency has gone out of their way to condemn ear piercings:
"I submit that it is an uncomely thing, and yet a common thing, to see young men with ears pierced for earrings, not for one pair only, but for several. They have no respect for their appearance. Do they think it clever or attractive to so adorn themselves?"
"I submit it is not adornment. It is making ugly that which was attractive. Not only are ears pierced, but other parts of the body as well, even the tongue. It is absurd."
"We–the First Presidency and the Council of the Twelve–have taken the position, and I quote, that “the Church discourages tattoos. It also discourages the piercing of the body for other than medical purposes, although it takes no position on the minimal piercing of the ears by women for one pair of earrings.”"
- Gordon B. Hinckley, “Your Greatest Challenge, Mother,” Ensign, Nov. 2000, 97
"Likewise the piercing of the body for multiple rings in the ears, in the nose, even in the tongue. Can they possibly think that is beautiful? It is a passing fancy, but its effects can be permanent. Some have gone to such extremes that the ring had to be removed by surgery. The First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve have declared that we discourage tattoos and also “the piercing of the body for other than medical purposes.” We do not, however, take any position “on the minimal piercing of the ears by women for one pair of earrings”–one pair only."
- Gordon B. Hinckley, “Great Shall Be the Peace of Thy Children,” Ensign, Nov. 2000, 50
"May I mention earrings and rings placed in other parts of the body. These are not manly. They are not attractive. You young men look better without them, and I believe you will feel better without them. As for the young women, you do not need to drape rings up and down your ears. One modest pair of earrings is sufficient."
- Text of a talk given to youth and young single adults on 12 November 2000 at the Conference Center in Salt Lake City and broadcast by satellite throughout the Church.
http://www.byu.edu/honorcode
"Latter-day prophets strongly discourage the piercing of the body except for medical purposes. If girls or woman desire to have their ears pierced, they are encouraged to wear only one pair of modest earrings. Those who choose to disregard this counsel sow a lack of respect for themselves and for God. They will someday regret their decisions."
- LDS Youth Pamphlet, "True to The Faith, a gospel reference."
| On another thread, it was mentioned that a Stake President told his TBM wife that her earrings were unacceptable.
This is happening all over the church. TBMs write me, insisting that they are the most free people on earth and the
church doesn't dictate or coerce behavior. Talk about denial:
"Latter-day prophets strongly discourage the piercing
of the body except for medical purposes. If girls or woman desire to have their ears pierced, they are encouraged to wear
only one pair of modest earrings. Those who choose to disregard this counsel show a lack of respect for themselves and for
God. They will someday regret their decisions."
- Widely-circulated LDS Pamphlet, "True to The Faith, a gospel
reference."
Based on the above church publication alone, local church leaders are telling women to take off all
but one set of earrings. They are telling the girls not to pierce them at all.
This war on earrings is coming from the
president ofthe church, who explains openly why Mormons should conform:
"I submit that it is an uncomely thing, and
yet a common thing, to see young men with ears pierced for earrings, not for one pair only, but for several. They have no
respect for their appearance. Do they think it clever or attractive to so adorn themselves?"
"I submit it is
not adornment. It is making ugly that which was attractive. Not only are ears pierced, but other parts of the body as well,
even the tongue. It is absurd."
"We–the First Presidency and the Council of the Twelve–have taken the
position, and I quote, that “the Church discourages tattoos. It also discourages the piercing of the body for other
than medical purposes, although it takes no position on the minimal piercing of the ears by women for one pair of earrings.”"
- Gordon B. Hinckley, “Your Greatest Challenge, Mother,” Ensign, Nov. 2000, 97
"Likewise the piercing of the
body for multiple rings in the ears, in the nose, even in the tongue. Can they possibly think that is beautiful? It is a
passing fancy, but its effects can be permanent. Some have gone to such extremes that the ring had to be removed by surgery. The
First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve have declared that we discourage tattoos and also “the piercing of the body for
other than medical purposes.” We do not, however, take any position “on the minimal piercing of the ears by women for one pair of
earrings”–one pair only."
- Gordon B. Hinckley, “Great Shall Be the Peace of Thy Children,” Ensign, Nov. 2000,
50
"May I mention earrings and rings placed in other parts of the body. These are not manly. They are not
attractive. You young men look better without them, and I believe you will feel better without them. As for the young
women, you do not need to drape rings up and down your ears. One modest pair of earrings is sufficient."
- Text of a
talk given to youth and young single adults on 12 November 2000 at the Conference Center in Salt Lake City and broadcast by
satellite throughout the Church.
Whether you personally don't like earrings, is it the business of the Church to
shame people into going with its leader's grooming preferences?
President Hinckley isn't shy about telling married
couples that oral sex is off-limits either:
http://www.i4m.com/think/sexuality/mormon_oral_sex.htm
What personal boundary does the church
respect?
| In another post, I mentioned the two letters sent out by the 1st Presidency on oral sex. Several people have emailed me asking about these letters.
On 5 January 1982, in response to numerous queries about oral sex, the First Presidency distributed a letter to bishops and stake presidents. In it, they characterized oral sex as impure. However, the letter specifically stated that church leaders were not to discuss intimate sexual matters with members. The letter was also not to be shared with the general church membership.
Here is a link to the whole letter:
http://www.lds-mormon.com/worthy_letter.shtml
A number of the local leaders read the first part of the letter but ignored the second, choosing instead to delve into members' intimate lives. After the 1982 letter, a number of members complained bout bishops or stake presidents making such inquiries. Some reported local leaders using church meetings to counsel members about sexual practices. Almost all of the inquiries and counsel dealt specifically with oral sex. As a result of these intrusions, many members wrote letters to church leaders, protesting ecclesiastical meddling. In response to these reactions, on October 15, 1982 a second letter was sent to stake and ward leaders that reiterated the first directive to avoid inquiring into couples' intimate sexual practices. Further, it directed leaders that even if asked by members about specific sexual matters in marriage they were to avoid giving direct counsel.
Here are the highlights:
First Presidency instruction to all stake and mission leaders that many letters from church members "indicate clearly that some local leaders have been delving into private, sensitive matters beyond the scope of what is appropriate.... Also, you should never inquire into personal, intimate matters involving marital relations between a man and his wife." Letter continues that even if a church member volunteers such intimate information, "you should not persue the matter but should merely suggest that if the member has enough anxiety about the propriety of the conduct to ask about it, the best course would be to discontinue it."
Now you have the whole story.
| Is the church getting more cultish or mainstream?
As someone already mentioned here, the new Engisn Magazine has this
latest example of Mormon cultspeak.
Excerpts from "Beleive All Things" by Elder Robert Oaks:
"For us, to
'believe all things' means to believe the doctrine of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ as well as the words of the
Latterday prophets. It means to successfully erase our doubts and reservations. It means that in making spiritual
commitments, we are prepared to hold nothing back. It means we are ready to consecrate our lives to the work of the
kingdom."
"The more we believe, the easier faith-based obedience becomes. Hence the value of 'believing all
things.'"
"We are instructed to be like children, who are willing to be taught and then to act without first
demanding full knowledge."
"Some members are constantly evaluating the gospel by the standards of the world. They may
think, 'That is not how I think the Lord would want it done,' or, 'Based on my understanding of the scriptures, the Church
position should have been . . .'”
"Some Church members may have reservations because of a physical appetite they
are not quite willing to surrender."
"Other common reservations are flagged by words such as 'yes, but . . .' when
scriptures or prophets are quoted. Or we may hear, 'I am not going to let the Church make my decisions for me...'”
"Obedience is a fundamental law of the gospel. It is not only the demonstration of our faith but also the foundation of
our faith. But the philosophical standard of the world holds that unquestioning obedience equals blind obedience, and blind
obedience is mindless obedience. This is simply not true. Unquestioning obedience to the Lord indicates that a person has
developed faith and trust in Him to the point where he or she considers all inspired instruction – whether it be recorded
scripture or the words of modern prophets – to be worthy of obedience."
"One day there will be answers to all our
questions, and they will be based on divine fairness and love. The Lord will not hold people accountable for factors over
which they have no control."
"Let us believe all things. Let us have unquestioning faith in all of the
doctrines and truths of the restored gospel."
"Helps for Family Home Evening: 1. Blindfold one family member. Have
a parent guide him or her through a set of obstacles. Compare this activity to the doctrines presented in this article."
- Elder Robert Oaks, Believe All Things," July 05 Ensign, page 30, http://lds.org/churchmagazines/7-2005-Ensign/Jul2005Ensign.pdf
Those words echo the recent
teachings of other Mormon Church leaders:
"I know a 17-year-old who, just prior to the prophet’s talk, had pierced her
ears a second time. She came home from the fireside, took off the second set of earrings, and simply said to her parents, 'If
President Hinckley says we should only wear one set of earrings, that’s good enough for me.'"
"Wearing two pair
of earrings may or may not have eternal consequences for this young woman, but her willingness to obey the prophet will. And
if she will obey him now, on something relatively simple, how much easier it will be to follow him when greater issues are at
stake."
- Apostle M. Russell Ballard, “His Word Ye Shall Receive,” Ensign, May 2001, 65
"But no child
in this Church should be left with uncertainty about his or her parents' devotion to the Lord Jesus Christ, the Restoration of
His Church, and the reality of living prophets and apostles who, now as in earlier days, lead that Church according to 'the will
of the Lord, . . . the mind of the Lord, . . . the word of the Lord, . . . and the power of God unto salvation.' In such basic
matters of faith, prophets do not apologize for requesting unity, indeed conformity, in the eloquent sense that the Prophet
Joseph Smith used that latter word. In any case, as Elder Neal Maxwell once said to me in a hallway conversation, 'There didn't
seem to be any problem with conformity the day the Red Sea opened.'"
- Apostle Jeffrey R. Holland, General Conference,
Sunday April 6th 2003
"The book of Revelation declares: 'I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I
would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth'
(Revelation 3:15-16)."
"I make you a promise, my dear brethren, that while I am serving in my present responsibility
I will never consent to nor advocate any policy, any program, any doctrine which will be otherwise than beneficial to the
membership of this, the Lord's Church."
"This is His work. He established it. He has revealed its doctrine. He has
outlined its practices. He created its government. It is His work and His kingdom, and He has said, 'They who are not for me
are against me' (2 Nephi 10:16)."
"Each of us has to face the matter-either the Church is true, or it is a
fraud. There is no middle ground. It is the Church and kingdom of God, or it is nothing."
- President Gordon B.
Hinckley. "Loyalty," April Conference, 2003.
See even more cult-like quotes on obedience here:
http://www.i4m.com/think/leaders/mormon_loyalty.htm
So is the church getting more cultish or more
mainstream?
| On another thread, someone said:
[Oral sex] is not officially banned anymore.
In the 80's he First Presidency sent a notice to local leadership advising them that oral sex was dirty and should not be practiced.
The membership found out about this, they voiced their concern, and SURPRISE SURPRISE! God changed his mind. Oral wasn't endorsed...but it wasn't shun-worthy either.
Actually, TBMs e-mail me from time to time with this same idea. I've asked them to produce something in writing from the prophet or the church leadership that oral sex is now okay. Nobody has come up with anything yet.
I know there are some faithful LDS that practice oral sex and think it's okay, or someone their own private matter. (I wonder why they don't extend that belief to their checkbook and dinner menu!)
But there are still many others who remember the prophet's open condemnation of oral sex and that it keeps you unworthy of the temple (and therefore the Celestial Kingdom).
This is a hot topic for members of the church. My web page outlining the church's position on oral sex is the most popular page on my site - even more popular than my South Park stuff.
http://www.i4m.com/think/sexuality/mo...
| Can the LDS Church today fairly be described as monolithic?
Some church apologists like to quote Hugh B. Brown's BYU speech from over 45 years ago as proof that the church wants diversity of thought.
Actually, Brown's statement sounds pretty good:
http://www.lds-mormon.com/brown2.shtml
Unfortunately, the church has completely rejected Brown's idea of free thinking. Just look at what living church leaders are telling the flock now:
"On this occasion I am not going to talk about the good or bad of Prohibition but rather of uncompromising loyalty to the Church."
"How grateful, my brethren, I feel, how profoundly grateful for the tremendous faith of so many Latter-day Saints who, when facing a major decision on which the Church has taken a stand, align themselves with that position. And I am especially grateful to be able to say that among those who are loyal are men and women of achievement, of accomplishment, of education, of influence, of strength-highly intelligent and capable individuals."
"Each of us has to face the matter-either the Church is true, or it is a fraud. There is no middle ground. It is the Church and kingdom of God, or it is nothing."
- President Gordon B. Hinckley. "Loyalty," April Conference, 2003.
"For us, to 'believe all things' means to believe the doctrine of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ as well as the words of the Latterday prophets. It means to successfully erase our doubts and reservations. It means that in making spiritual commitments, we are prepared to hold nothing back. It means we are ready to consecrate our lives to the work of the kingdom."
"The more we believe, the easier faith-based obedience becomes. Hence the value of 'believing all things.'"
"We are instructed to be like children, who are willing to be taught and then to act without first demanding full knowledge."
"Some members are constantly evaluating the gospel by the standards of the world. They may think, 'That is not how I think the Lord would want it done,' or, 'Based on my understanding of the scriptures, the Church position should have been . . .'"
"Some Church members may have reservations because of a physical appetite they are not quite willing to surrender."
"Other common reservations are flagged by words such as 'yes, but . . .' when scriptures or prophets are quoted. Or we may hear, 'I am not going to let the Church make my decisions for me.'"
"Obedience is a fundamental law of the gospel. It is not only the demonstration of our faith but also the foundation of our faith. But the philosophical standard of the world holds that unquestioning obedience equals blind obedience, and blind obedience is mindless obedience. This is simply not true. Unquestioning obedience to the Lord indicates that a person has developed faith and trust in Him to the point where he or she considers all inspired instruction – whether it be recorded scripture or the words of modern prophets – to be worthy of obedience."
"One day there will be answers to all our questions, and they will be based on divine fairness and love. The Lord will not hold people accountable for factors over which they have no control."
"Let us believe all things. Let us have unquestioning faith in all of the doctrines and truths of the restored gospel."
- Elder Robert Oaks, "Believe All Things," Ensign, July 2005, page 30
(Also, the footnote to this article reads: "Helps for Family Home Evening: 1. Blindfold one family member. Have a parent guide him or her through a set of obstacles. Compare this activity to the doctrines presented in this article.")
"I know a 17-year-old who, just prior to the prophet’s talk, had pierced her ears a second time. She came home from the fireside, took off the second set of earrings, and simply said to her parents, “If President Hinckley says we should only wear one set of earrings, that’s good enough for me.”"
"Wearing two pair of earrings may or may not have eternal consequences for this young woman, but her willingness to obey the prophet will. And if she will obey him now, on something relatively simple, how much easier it will be to follow him when greater issues are at stake."
- Apostle M. Russell Ballard, “His Word Ye Shall Receive,” Ensign, May 2001, 65
"To lead a child - or anyone else - even inadvertently, away from faithfulness, away from loyalty and bedrock belief simply because we want to be clever or independent is license no parent nor any other person has ever been given. In matters of religion a skeptical mind is not a higher manifestation of virtue than is a believing heart, and analytical deconstruction in the field of, say, literary fiction can be just plain old-fashioned destruction when transferred to families yearning for faith at home. And such a deviation from the true course can be deceptively slow and subtle in its impact. As one observer said, "[If you raise the temperature of my] bath water . . . only 1 degree every 10 minutes, how [will I] know when to scream?"
- Apostle Jeffrey R. Holland, General Conference, Sunday April 6th 2003
And there are many more statements like these that the flock hears now:
http://www.i4m.com/think/leaders/mormon_loyalty.htm
So which is it? Today, does the Mormon Church in practice follow what Hugh B. Brown said, or has it embraced the monolithic teachings of its current leaders?
| The church used the word "obedience" in 2005 publications 21 times. This is down from 2004, when "obedience" was used 33 times.
The term "Free Agency" is still out of vogue. 2002, 2003 and 2004 publications did not use the term "Free Agency" at all. 2005 did include one reference to "Free Agency" but that was only to clarify that the term is inappropriate:
Our right to choose is called agency (agency or moral agency - not free agency).
http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dl...
| My mom and several sisters are getting ready to attend Women's Conference held at BYU.
Topic of discussion - can we wear flip flops? I think we can't wear flip-flops. I think a GA talked about said dreaded flip-flops at General Conference. Apparently there is a movement to not allow flip-flops at church either.
What
the
hell!
A bunch of grown women, mothers, legal adults, can't even look in their closets and decide which footwear to pack without a GA's advice?
The pettiness is mind-boggling. Honestly.
| I can't believe I actually argued with my wife on this, but I did.
I was reading "The Great Apostasy" by James E. Talmadge, and he said something in there about Jesus living the 'Spirit of the Law' vs. the 'Letter of the Law' I made some comment like...
"To bad the Church doesn't follow the 'spirit of the law' like they did in the early days.'
Anything negative about the Church is fighting words with my wife no matter how SMALL it is.
"What do you mean by THAT?"
"Well, I think the Church should be counseling on important things like war and peace, not how many earrings a woman should have in each ear."
"A line has to be drawn SOMEWHERE! Were would YOU draw the line?" She said.
"To be honest, I wouldn't care if they had a hundred in each ear as long as they were good people who didn't harm others."
"Would you go so far as to allow men to put rings in their foreskin. That's happening now you know!"
"Okay, maybe I would preach against that." (Honestly, I could care less about that too. Whatever toots their horn and isn't harming ME.)
So anyways people are busy dying all over the world in a stupid war and yet it is necessary for a LINE to be drawn somewhere on earrings.
Stupid Stupid Stupid.
| Less than a year ago, the church published a talk by LDS Apostle Dallin Oaks which calls for blind obedience.
It seemed silly at the time and received little attention here.
Now with the church taking action against a BYU professor again, the church's rhetoric on obedience once again is in the limelight.
Based on the church's position as explained in this talk, it's no wonder Nielsen got the boot. And TBMs seem to be getting justification from the church to demonize him.
"For us, to 'believe all things' means to believe the doctrine of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ as well as the words of the Latterday prophets. It means to successfully erase our doubts and reservations. It means that in making spiritual commitments, we are prepared to hold nothing back. It means we are ready to consecrate our lives to the work of the kingdom."
"The more we believe, the easier faith-based obedience becomes. Hence the value of 'believing all things.'"
"We are instructed to be like children, who are willing to be taught and then to act without first demanding full knowledge."
"Some members are constantly evaluating the gospel by the standards of the world. They may think, 'That is not how I think the Lord would want it done,' or, 'Based on my understanding of the scriptures, the Church position should have been . . .'"
"Some Church members may have reservations because of a physical appetite they are not quite willing to surrender."
"Other common reservations are flagged by words such as 'yes, but . . .' when scriptures or prophets are quoted. Or we may hear, 'I am not going to let the Church make my decisions for me.'"
"Obedience is a fundamental law of the gospel. It is not only the demonstration of our faith but also the foundation of our faith. But the philosophical standard of the world holds that unquestioning obedience equals blind obedience, and blind obedience is mindless obedience. This is simply not true. Unquestioning obedience to the Lord indicates that a person has developed faith and trust in Him to the point where he or she considers all inspired instruction – whether it be recorded scripture or the words of modern prophets – to be worthy of obedience."
"One day there will be answers to all our questions, and they will be based on divine fairness and love. The Lord will not hold people accountable for factors over which they have no control."
"Let us believe all things. Let us have unquestioning faith in all of the doctrines and truths of the restored gospel."
(Elder Robert Oaks, "Believe All Things," Ensign, July 2005, page 30)
- http://www.i4m.com/think/leaders/morm...
How can any TBM that believes this crap have anything but disgust for Jeffrey Nielsen? Hasn't the church set the situation up against free thinkers?
| I work with a woman whose TBM relatives send the Ensign to her home, obviously with the hope that it will convert her to LDS-ism. It's having the opposite effect.
The December issue carries Bednar's BYU preposterous devotional sermon, "Quick to Observe", in which he recounts the story of an RM who dumped his girlfriend when she did not immediately remove her second set of earrings upon hearing of Hinckley's directive to do so. The young man was "quick to observe that the young woman was NOT quick to observe." (I think we can all agree that the young woman was lucky to have an end to a relationship with that kind of religious nut-case).
Bednar said he realized some listeners/readers might think that basing the decision to marry someone on something as trivial-seeming as earrings was "silly and fanatical".
Precisely. That's EXACTLY how my co-worker sees it. She made two comments: first, she can't believe that God is so petty as to care how many earrings someone wears (obviously, she's never met the god of Mormonism. I wonder
what she'd think if she knew about garments). Second, if the Mormons have a prophet who has direct communication with the Almighty, you'd think he could get something that would benefit humanity, rather than a fashion directive.
So, here are my questions: Do the Brethren realize how ridiculous this whole earring directive sounds to any non-member who hears of it? I had originally thought this was something Hinckley said off the top of his head, and expected it to die a quick, quiet death with an embarassed silence, but at least Two of the Twelve (Bednar and Ballard) have made big deals of it in recent sermons. Are the men at the top THAT out-of-touch?
Or do they know and not care? Have they given up on converts and are trying to cement their control over the current active membership by making it a test of loyalty to obey trivial, ridiculous rules? Bednar admitted that the real issue was obedience, not earrings.
I've decided I really LIKE this entire earring matter. It shows LDS-ism as it really is: a nutty organization that requires blind obedience to ridiculous rules and makes a huge issue out of something of no consequence. If you want to protect your friends and relatives from the church, send them a subscription to the Ensign and let them see the church for what it is.
But what do you think is really behind the emphasis on this crazy issue?
| I had heard of the Lafferty's and the nuts and bolts of what happened but was ignorant of the motive for the murders.
This is a link to a 2004 Deseret News article which i found interesting.
http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249...
Aside from the psychotic "i wouldn't be surprised if i am Gabriel" and expecting the prison walls to come tumbling down i found the following quote interesting....
"Not far from Stowe's Highland home, Kathy Pace lives in a two-story brick house. Pace knew Brenda and Allen Lafferty well; Allen helped her prepare for her first visit to the LDS Temple.
Two decades have passed, but she cannot talk about the couple without crying. Her 14-year-old daughter baby-sat Erica three days a week, she says, and on the day of the murders Brenda had called to ask for a baby sitter. Pace says she had an uncomfortable feeling and didn't let her daughter go.
"She could have been there. The thought has crossed my mind a lot," she says. "As a mother I feel so bad for what Brenda went through, but as a mother I also feel so grateful that my daughter wasn't there."
I wonder how many hundreds, if not thousands, of people in the area have a similar "I was always at their home at that time each week but felt prompted not to go!" legend that they spout off.
Mormonism is rife with such urban legends and it doesn't surprise me that this woman believes that a loving father in heaven spoke to her so that her daughter could be saved. Somehow she is unable to take that a step further and wonder why that same loving god decided a 24 year old woman and her 15 month old baby should have their throat's slit.
What mormons say to themselves, as we have discussed in other threads over the past few days, is that it's part of god's glorious plan and we cannot fathom the eternal perspective that he has and one day this will all make sense and be ok.
I still can't believe that, if only to myself, i used to play this "Get Out Of Having To Think Too Deeply" card when things didn't add up. I echo Dawkin's (and many others) - Just because something is comforting, or reassuring, that doesn't make it true.
| A few days ago, I got into a heated discussion with my parents about the mormon church and how it's all about conformity, obedience, never saying anything bad about the church and paying lots of money. They promptly denied any of that being true. I then asked them how long before I'd be asked to leave if I showed up in tee-shirt and jeans to a ward other than my assigned ward. (I was going for the double conformity issue with that statement.) They said they had had people show up like that to their ward and they were welcomed. Maybe once or twice they would welcome them, but I told them they wouldn't on a continual basis.
My own experience with this happened a couple of weeks after returning from my mission. I knew that it was customary that newly returned missionaries would travel around the stake and speak in each of the wards with a high councilman. I absolutely did not want to do that, so when I was called upon by the stake to speak at a stake youth conference I showed up wearing a nice maroon colored shirt and tie-less. Man, did the member the stake presidency that was running the youth conference get his garments in a wad. He would not let me present my message like that and he wouldn't start the conference until after he dragged me to his nearby home to retrieve a tie for me to wear. He also wanted me to change into one of his white shirts, but fortunately he had the wrong size shirt. The great thing was after that one talk, I accomplished my goal, I was never called again by the stake to give another talk. I also learned that mormons really, really, really care about what you wear to church.
I recently attended a local Christian church to learn about their worship services and many people came in tee-shirts and jeans, including a someone with the following quote on the back of his tee-shirt, "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy - Ben Franklin." I didn't see anyone there that had a problem with his shirt, including the Pastors, but I doubt you'd even get through door of a mormon church while wearing that shirt.
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