THE MORMON CURTAIN
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BAPTISM FOR THE DEAD
Mormons dress up in costumes in their temples and perform ritualistic ceremonies to baptize dead people into their Cult.
| Mormons believe that a person who dies without baptism must wait in a Spiritual Prison until someone on earth does a baptism by proxy for them. They can then accept or reject that baptism. These baptisms are performed in Mormon temples.
Adolf Hitler has been baptized three times and thousands of his Jewish victims have been baptized as well.
It's safe to assume that none of these people have Mormon descendants.
Every time there is a public outcry over indiscriminate vicarious baptisms, the church comes out and promises not to do it again. And then it continues the demeaning practice until it gets caught again and then the cycle starts over again.
There's systematic correlation of temple records, so vicarious ordinances routinely are performed on the same person more than once.
Senior Mormon Missionaries pour over graveyards and court records looking for deceased. These names are then submitted and a baptism for that dead person is performed in a Mormon Temple. No permission is given as Mormons feel they are obeying their God in doing necro baptisms.
| A friend recently found out one of her dead relatives had been baptized, and nobody in their extended family did it. The ancestor was an atheist so the family felt he would not have appreciated this. Do Mormons only baptize relatives located through genealogy searches, or any names they find?
Adolf Hitler has been baptized three times and thousands of his Jewish victims have been baptized as well. It's same to assume that none of these people have Mormon descendants. Every time there is a public outcry over indiscriminate vicarious baptisms, the church comes out and promises not to do it again. And then it continues the demeaning practice until it gets caught again and then the cycle starts over again. There's systematic correlation of temple records, so vicarious ordinances routinely are performed on the same person more than once.
The church used to have full time employees that would go to local govt offices all around the world and get info on births and deaths in various communities and forward that info on to the gen. library in SLC. Ordinance are then done for these individuals regardless of their family religion, family approval or even family notification.
I have a friend who did this work for the church as an employee in Louisiana for about 3 years. He would go to local parish offices and gather info for the church. Now, however, I think that the church just sends out the older missionaries to do this work..why pay for it when you can get someone to do it for free?
They harvest names wherever they can find them. Cemetaries, obits, encyclopedias, city or church records. In spite of objection from the Jewish community and the Russion Orthodox Church, the last time I heard, they were still baptising holocaust victims and names they bought from a museum in Moscow.
| From the SFGate:
Jewish leaders claim Mormons continue to posthumously baptize Jews and Holocaust victims, and will confront church leaders with a decade of frustration over what they call broken promises.
Click Here For Original Link Or Thread.
"We have proof, and we are bringing that," said Ernest Michel, chairman of the New York-based World Gathering of Jewish Holocaust Survivors.
The Mormon church has long collected names from government documents and other records worldwide for posthumous baptisms. Church members stand in for the deceased non-Mormons, a ritual the church says is required for the dead to reach heaven. The church believes individuals' ability to choose a religion continues beyond the grave.
Michel plans to show posthumous baptism records to church officials in meetings Sunday and Monday. He says the records prove tens of thousands of Jews, including some who died in Nazi concentration camps, were posthumously baptized over the past 10 years and as recently as last month.
A 1995 agreement signed by Jewish leaders and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints called for an immediate halt to unwanted proxy baptisms. After evidence was found in the church's massive International Genealogical Index that the baptisms for many Jews - including Anne Frank - continued, the two faiths reaffirmed the agreement in 2002.
"Nobody asked me, nobody asked my cousin. It's ridiculous," Skydell said.
| Tom Said:
If they (the Jewish leaders) are motivated merely with a desire to ensure an injustice is not done, perhaps they ought to start on the behaviour of their own nation state towards its own Palestinian citizens.
Well Tom, that it a telling statement to include in your defense of leaving Mormons alone to "do their own thing". Did it occur to you that, although the "Jewish leaders" may be directly related to holocaust victims, their present rights and wrongs have absolutely nothing to do with the obligation the world has to millions of victims burned, starved and killed in Nazi concentration camps?
Baptizing those people Mormon is offensive. Not because "Jewish leaders" say so, but rather it's just common sense. I don't have to be related to Nazi holocaust victims to know their memory and dignity should be honored and protected. The very LEAST the world can do for those millions of innocent people murdered is prevent crazy cults and fraudulent con men from manipulating and tinkering with the family names and dignity of the victims.
The Mormons whimper and whine endlessly, day in and day out about the tragedies and suffering endured by the Mormon pioneers. I'm sure LDS, Inc. would do a lot of complaining if a rival cult began tinkering with the names and dignity of those mormon victims. Don't tell me LDS, Inc. is **above** that.
| From the Salt Lake Tribune:
Jewish and Mormon leaders came to an amicable resolution Monday about the continued appearance of Jewish names on the LDS Church's genealogical index, used for the church's controversial practice of doing proxy baptisms for the dead.
Click Here For Original Link Or Thread.
Ernest Michel, chairman of the New York-based World Gathering of Jewish Holocaust Survivors, called the meetings "warm and satisfactory."
Essentially the two groups affirmed their 1995 agreement, in which The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints agreed to discontinue vicarious baptisms for Jewish victims and most other Jews as well as remove their names from the giant computerized International Genealogical Index - unless they are direct ancestors of current church members. They also created a joint oversight committee to be convened within six weeks that will explore reasons why the names keep popping up on the list.
Mormon leaders claim it is due to an unmanageably large list with billions of names and overzealous members who are not following church President Gordon B. Hinckley's directive to limit their submissions to those in their own family lines.
| From the Deseret News:
Jewish leaders and the LDS Church will look for ways to more closely scrutinize the names of Jews and Holocaust victims submitted to the church for proxy baptism.
Click Here For Original Link Or Thread.
Representatives of the New York-based World Gathering of Jewish Holocaust Survivors came to Salt Lake City saying the church had broken a 10-year-old agreement to refrain from the practice. Officials of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints say the church has always kept its part of the understanding.
After meetings Sunday and Monday that both sides described as cordial, leaders from the two faiths reaffirmed the existing memorandum and formed a joint committee to resolve some remaining issues.
"We came to convince the church there has to be a change in their attitude about the posthumous baptism of Jews," said Ernest W. Michel, chairman of the Holocaust survivors group.
"We cannot say we have eliminated all the problems. They will have to be worked out. But in the spirit of this meeting, I am convinced they will be worked out."
Personally I don't think the LDS Church should baptise anyone without permission. If they can't find a living relative, they have no right and no permission to baptise.
| The Russian Inter-Religious Council has described as “deliberate abuse” the Mormon practice of enrolling deceased people in their organization. Russia is also subject to the practice, and it’s a pity there is no law to stop Mormons from doing it, Roman Silantyev, spokesman for the Council, told Interfax Tuesday.
“Followers of the U.S. Mormon sect have for several decades been known to collect information about the deceased of all confessions and then convert them to Mormonism by means of a magic ritual they call baptizing,” he said.
“All the traditional religions reject the practice and see it as a deliberate abuse of the memory of the deceased,” he added.
Last week the media reported that U.S. Mormons also “converted” the victims of the Holocaust, whose names they found published in the Holocaust Memory Book. The sources also said “convertions” took place in Russia, too.
“In Russia Mormons usually buy birth registers from local archives,” Silantiev said. “Local archives cooperate willingly because of financial strains,” he added.
The spokesman for the Russian Inter-Religious Council expressed concern that the there was no legislation to prohibit the Mormon practice. He called on people working with archives to be attentive and not to “sell dead souls” to “visiting swindlers”, Interfax reports.
Click Here For Original Link Or Thread.
| The one element of membership that kept me driving forward was the idea of doing a "great work" for my ancestors.
If there was anything that would make me put the blinders on - and make me want to return to the temple - was the idea that without this work - my ancestors will be "damned."
If there is anything to make me want to turn around and look back to the church - it would be the promise that doing the holy hokey-pokey would benefit those who went before.
More superstition than faith...
If there is an area where I am MOST angry is in this emotional blackmail.
| Hartford Courant Reporter Wrote Me Back About LDS Missionaries Cataloguing Gravestones In A CT Cemetary |
Monday, Jan 16, 2006, at 04:36 AM
Original Author(s): Ptloma
Topic: BAPTISM FOR THE DEAD -Link To MC Article-
| ↑ |
| Looks like this reporter, while well-meaning, didn't do her homework:
She fails to connect this activity with the unwanted publicity the LDS Church attracts when it's caught performing temple rites on people such as Holocaust victims, celebrities, and even Hillary Clinton's father.
Her e-mail address is at the bottom of the article. If you write, please be polite and respectful. She lives in a part of the country where most people haven't even met Mormons, let alone know one well. Here is what I wrote her:
Dear Ms. Campbell,
She did do me the courtesy of replying. Her reply is below.
I enjoyed reading your well-written article in the Courant, but would like
to expand upon the uses of the data gathered by the LDS Church. The Church
PR version states that the names are catalogued and added to their
geneaology records, so that members can perform proxy baptisms and
endowments on behalf of deceased, nonmember ancestors.
In practice, however, MOST of the names gathered by the church are "run
through the temples", that is, they are used for proxy temple ordinances by
members who are in no way related to the deceased persons and who most
likely know nothing about the deceased person in question. Additionally, the
living descendants of such deceased persons, who most likely practice
another religion (or none at all), are not even aware that their ancestors'
names are being used in such proxy rituals.
The use of Holocaust victims has received the most prominent attention,
because despite over a decade of promises, the LDS Church continues to
perform proxy rites on behalf of Holocaust survivors. However, these victims
are only a small proportion of the nonancestral (that is, those who are not
direct ancestors of living members) names for whom proxy rites are performed
in LDS temples. Even Hillary Clinton's late, very Methodist father has been
"rebaptized" and endowed in the LDS Church.
The cemetary cataloguing effort is only one way the LDS Church obtains names
for its files. Other missionaries offer to microfilm aging county death
records....but only if the church receives a copy for itself. Other LDS
missionaries labor at "name extraction", in which information is gleaned
from newspaper obituaries and other public sources of record. No effort is
made to determine whether these people have living descendants who are
currently members of the LDS Church.
I have no qualms with LDS Church members performing these rites for their
own ancestors, if they believe in the validity of such rituals. But dragging unrelated names into their religion, whether
they are living or deceased, shows a blatant lack of respect for the wishes
of those persons (since most presumably had a chance to join the LDS Church
in life), as well as disregard for the feelings of the living descendant
relatives. What if Brigham Young or Joseph Smith were posthumously made a
Catholic or a Jew or a Moslem?
She seems to be aware of the controversy of using names of deceased persons without consent of the living relatives, but doesn't seem to understand the extent of the problem. In addition, she seems to believe that the problem was solved with the latest series of meetings between LDS and Jewish leaders (the problem goes way beyond using the names of Holocaust victims, however....I doubt if anyone in the Hartford cemetary was a Holocaust victim).
What gets my goat is that the LDS Church cloaks these activities as "community service": offering to microfilm yellowing vital records in a rural county, or surveying a cemetary as took place in Connecticut. What the PR doesn't mention is that there are strings attached: the church is really after the data, and if the church wasn't allowed to keep a copy of the data, they wouldn't kindly offer to do these activities in the first place.
"I had read about the controversy regarding the Jewish deceased from a
few years ago, but chose not to include it. The church says that people
"on the other side" -- those who are already dead -- have the choice not
to accept the baptism. It opens up a whole 'nuther can of worms,
ethically speaking, to involve a person -- or a person's spirit -- in a
church ceremony they did not choose during life. I didn't include the
particular controversy over the Jewish deceased because at the time, as
it appears from the news reports that the Mormons rather quickly
apologized, and promised to back off.
I did reply to her and included links to news articles showing that the controversy (at least with respect to Holocaust victims) has not been resolved. I included links to CNN and NPR.
I understand your concern about people being included in church rolls
when they didn't choose that membership, themselves. It's not a practice
I completely understand or would participate in. Speaking strictly
personally -- and I hardly expect any one else to share this notion --
it's my religious thinking that if I'm dead, and someone tries to move
me from one part of the Great Beyond to another, they will be sorely
disappointed. To quote the great Popeye, I Yam What I Yam.
Have a good day.
| The Simon Wiesenthal Center Calls On Mormon Church To Immediately Remove Simon Wiesenthal's Name From Database |
Wednesday, Dec 20, 2006, at 11:46 AM
Original Author(s): The Simon Wiesenthal Center
Topic: BAPTISM FOR THE DEAD -Link To MC Article-
| ↑ |
| The Simon Wiesenthal Center called on the Mormon Church to immediately remove Simon Wiesenthal from its online International Genealogical Index (IGI), which is the Mormon database of posthumous ordinances.
“We are astounded and dismayed that after assurances and promises by the Mormon Church that Mr. Wiesenthal's life and memory, along with so many other Jews, would be trampled and disregarded,” said Rabbi Marvin Hier, the Wiesenthal Center’s founder and dean.
“Simon Wiesenthal was one of the great Jews in the post-Holocaust period. He proudly lived as a Jew, died as a Jew, demanded justice for the millions of the victims of the Holocaust, and, at his request was buried in the State of Israel. It is sacrilegious for the Mormon faith to desecrate his memory by suggesting that Jews on their own are not worthy enough to receive G-ds’ eternal blessing, “added Rabbi Hier.
“We therefore urge the Church to remove his name and the names of all other Holocaust victims immediately,” Hier concluded.
The Simon Wiesenthal Center is one of the largest international Jewish human rights organizations with over 400,000 member families in the United States. It is an NGO at international agencies including the United Nations, UNESCO, the OSCE, and the Council of Europe.
For more information, please contact the Center's Public Relations Department, 310-553-9036.
| From Jewish Scene:
Nazi hunter's name taken off list after receiving complaint from Simon Wiesenthal Center
In life, Nazi hunter Simon Wiesenthal was among the most famous Jews of the 20th century. In death, he wound up on a list of people eligible to be posthumously baptized as Mormons so they could enter heaven.
Bowing to protests from Jewish groups, The Church of Latter Day Saints said on Tuesday that it had removed Wiesenthal's name from its International Genealogical Index, a database of names of people who be could be baptized after death.
A church spokesman said the Nazi hunter's name was taken off the list after receiving a complaint from the Simon Wiesenthal Centre, a Jewish human rights group named in his honor.
'I don't think he needs help getting into heaven'
Rabbi Marvin Heir, the dean and founder of the group, said, "From their point of view they thought they were doing him a favor by making sure he can get into heaven. For us, it is very offensive. Simon Wiesenthal dedicated his whole life to Jews. I don't think he needs help getting into heaven."
In 1995, after the Wiesenthal Center learnt that the church was baptizing Holocaust victims posthumously, the church agreed to stop the practice and removed 400,000 names from the index.
Mormon Church spokesman Bruce Olsen said Wiesenthal was off the list. He also said it is policy "that members submit only names of their own ancestors for vicarious baptisms" and that the 1995 agreement was still in force.
| From REUTERS:
PARIS (Reuters) - Pope Benedict was baptized at birth and will most likely be baptized again one year after his death, not by his Roman Catholic Church but by a Mormon he never met.
The Mormons, a U.S.-based denomination officially named the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (LDS), encourage members to baptize the dead by proxy in the belief they are helping the deceased attain full access to heaven.
Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, Genghis Khan, Mao Zedong, King Herod, Al Capone and Mickey Mouse have all appeared for a short time in the International Genealogical Index for proxy baptisms, said Helen Radkey, a researcher specialized in the IGI.
So Benedict looks set to join his predecessor John Paul and a centuries-long list of popes Mormons have baptized -- despite the fact that he, back when he was the Vatican's top doctrinal authority, ruled that Mormon baptisms were not even Christian.
Pope Pius XII was baptized three times and also "sealed" in eternal marriage to a fictional Mrs Eugenio Pacelli. Saint Ignatius Loyola, founder of the Jesuit order of priests, was also "sealed" to a bogus wife. Catholic clergy do not marry.
| For an excellent chronicle of the controversy see http://www.jewishgen.org/InfoFiles/ld.... It details how mormons agreed to stop baptising Jews in 1995, but continued to do so, and probably still do. This letter explains the problems:
January 11, 2004
Deseret Morning News
By Gary Mokotoff [Excerpts]
Posthumous baptism is a terrible insult to Jews
What could be more inappropriate than baptizing a Holocaust victim; a person who died for only one reason – he was a Jew. Yet Mordechai Anielowicz, the leader of the Warsaw ghetto rebellion, was posthumously baptized into the Mormon faith. He is not an isolated incident. Hundreds of thousands of Holocaust victims – men, women, children and babies – have been baptized. Is it the thought that Holocaust victims can be comforted in their afterlife by accepting the Mormon religion?
Some of my Mormon friends have told me the ritual is an act of love. While this may be true, something that is intended as an act of love that causes the receiver pain becomes an act of cruelty.
The bottom line is that no person has a right to involve someone else's family in their religion. As I have told many of my Mormon friends, to many Jews – including myself – "baptize" is the second ugliest word in the English language. The ugliest word is "gassed." The third ugliest word is "raped."
To many Jews, "baptized" has a greater emotional reaction because to them – and me – to posthumously baptize a Jew is to rape his soul.
AND then you have the Spin from Hinkley:
Church President Gordon B. Hinckley has said the baptismal rite is only an offer of membership that can be rejected in the afterlife by individuals.
"So, there's no injury done to anybody," Hinckley told the AP in an interview last November. May 26, 2006
Associated Press, by Jennifer Dobner
The Hinkster just doesn't get it. Great jewish religious and political leader just aren't good enough on their own without mormonism's magic spells.
Hinkley, again, lied to the media. Ordinances for the dead are much more than just an "offer of membership." We all know the proxy is actually performing the rite on behalf of the deceased person. It's not just an offer, it is a desecration of the name and the person's life. It's saying, "we know what you need, your life wasn't good enough without this."
Other groups should be offended by this as well. Mormons have probably baptized Martin Luther King, Jr. and done his "temple work." Maybe they did it yesterday.
What other lives are they discounting and trivializing by making mormon? Who else wasn't good enough without the mormon stamp of approval? I'm embarrassed to have participated in this nonsense.
| From Catholic News Service:
WASHINGTON (CNS) -- In an effort to block posthumous rebaptisms by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Catholic dioceses throughout the world have been directed by the Vatican not to give information in parish registers to the Mormons' Genealogical Society of Utah.
An April 5 letter from the Vatican Congregation for Clergy, obtained by Catholic News Service in late April, asks episcopal conferences to direct all bishops to keep the Latter-day Saints from microfilming and digitizing information contained in those registers.
"This dicastery is bringing this matter to the attention of the various conferences of bishops," the letter reads. "The congregation requests that the conference notifies each diocesan bishop in order to ensure that such a detrimental practice is not permitted in his territory, due to the confidentiality of the faithful and so as not to cooperate with the erroneous practices of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints."
Mormons have been criticized by several other faiths -- perhaps most passionately by the Jews -- for the church's practice of posthumous baptism.
| Here we go again. The Mormon Church stated in 1995 that they would stop baptizing Jewish people, but they have started doing it again.
Holocaust survivors said Monday they are through trying to negotiate with the Mormon church over posthumous baptisms of Jews killed in Nazi concentration camps, saying the church has repeatedly violated a 13-year-old agreement barring the practice.
Leaders of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints say they are making changes to their massive genealogical database that will make it more difficult for names of Holocaust victims to be entered for posthumous baptism by proxy, a rite that has been a common Mormon practice for more than a century.
But Ernest Michel, honorary chairman of the American Gathering of Holocaust Survivors, said that is not enough. At a news conference in New York City on Monday, he said the church also must "implement a mechanism to undo what you have done."
"Baptism of a Jewish Holocaust victim and then merely removing that name from the database is just not acceptable," said Michel, whose parents died at Auschwitz. He spoke on the 70th anniversary of Kristallnacht, the Nazi-incited riots against Jews.
| They do not limit their dunkings to known mormon loved ones.
They've dead-dunked most known Native American tribal chiefs.
They've dead-dunked every entry they could find in every encyclopedia.
They've dead-dunked names they have gleaned from tombstones, from obituaries, from old city hall records, from English Church Christening logs, from immigration entry records, and from my parents' geneology records.
It makes zero difference to mormons if these dead people left specific instructions that they did NOT want their names used in mormon temple rites.
The mormon church has even paid cash for names to Russian museums. This, much to the consternation of officials in the Russian Orthodox Church.
I think it's insulting that they dunk Holocaust victims and Nazis in the same rites.
But I'll be blunt about it. I think it's also insulting that they plan to dunk ME.
To the mormons who discount what the dead requested in life, here's what I say. Spit on their mormon graves, cremate them or bury them in clown suits, not temple garb. Or give those dead mormons a Catholic mass. Also, I say, donate their money to abortion clinics and not to BYU or missionary funds. Afterall, when the mormons are dead, none of their wishes while living should still count. Right?
Seriously, I am among those who think it's appropriate to honor the wishes after death of those who cared enough to leave burial instructions and such from when they were alive.
| What did it was the thread about the clueless and hurtful TBM grandparents who dead-dunked a tragically lost grandson. They did it DESPITE knowing he had opposed the idea as does his surviving wife and both of his parents.
That angers me! How hurtful to his close surviving loved ones! And how disrespectful of his good name, his beliefs, and his memory!
I know, I know, I know! Morgbots say we have to get over it! After all, if we don't believe in it, what does it matter?
Well, it happens to matter to me!
Saying it doesn't matter just grinds salt into a gaping wound!
If what we do with dead names doesn't matter, then mormons should not have cared when I said I'd like to bury Gordie Hinckle-Binkle in a Bozo the Clown suit and dump a colony of cockroaches into his casket before sinking it beneath a two holer outhouse. None of that is real, but TBMs went crazy when I said something ever so much less graphic after Gordon died.
Yet, those dumb clucks tell me *I* have NO right to be unapprecitive of mormon efforts to desecrate me and my memory as soon as I leave this earth! Not to mention the memories of my nevermo husband, children, and grandchildren!
The gall! After spending a lifetime escaping that cult and trying to recover from it and protect my nevermo family from it!
I don't need to hear about their silly rules of waiting a year or getting permission. Those stipulations are ever changing and seldom followed or enforced.
Mormons can't agree on the WofW or if they have to tithe on net or gross. Those are commandments needed for a TR and required of God!
Dead dunking rules are on par with customs about who gets to hand out programs on Sunday or which Sunbeam tot gets to pray to start the class.
There are no consequences, temporal or eternal, for overlooking a dead-dunking rule. Most mormons don't know there are such rules, or they'd stop turning in names of newly dead movie stars and names from yesterday's obits.
Yep, I'm mad and I care ZERO that mormons "mean well" (gag) or think I have no right to care about what they do with my name when I'm dead.
| Family History Expert Says Vicarious Work Okay For Non-Relatives "If The Spirit Directs" |
Friday, May 8, 2009, at 07:56 AM
Original Author(s): Public Denial Private Practice
Topic: BAPTISM FOR THE DEAD -Link To MC Article-
| ↑ |
| Though official church policy prohibits performing vicarious work for non-relatives, a prominent family history expert just told me that the spirit trumps church policy.
He said where an individual gets a spiritual confirmation to do the work of a non-relative, it should be nonetheless.
He said that upon the spirit's prompting, he has prepared names and done vicarious work for non-relatives in the past. He said he will continue to prepare and perform such work when prompted and will advise others to do the same under similar circumstances regardless of the negative publicity brought on by the news of Obama's mother.
Joseph Smith used to say the same thing about marrying multiple women.
| Mormons Deny Baptizing US Founding Fathers, But Here's Official Picture And Story From LDS Site |
Friday, May 8, 2009, at 08:02 AM
Original Author(s): Deconstructor
Topic: BAPTISM FOR THE DEAD -Link To MC Article-
| ↑ |
| Today the Salt Lake Tribune documented Mormon Church claims that the US Founding Fathers are all Mormons now, because they appeared to a Prophet in the temple to be baptized into the church.
The LDS response is laughable. Some have have denied it. but here's the official story and picture from an official LDS site:
The LDS Church is still teaching this gospel truth, that the Founding Fathers are now Mormons because they requested and received Mormon baptism.
So why deny it? They should just embrace their marvelous work and wonder!
| Mormon Apostles Make No Apologies For Plan To Baptize Ever Dead Person That Ever Lived |
Monday, May 11, 2009, at 07:50 AM
Original Author(s): Deconstructor
Topic: BAPTISM FOR THE DEAD -Link To MC Article-
| ↑ |
| While the Mormon Church PR department is offering denials and making excuses, this is what the church has been telling its members for years:
Now there is another characteristic that identifies His Church and also has to do with baptism. There is a very provoking and a very disturbing question about those who died without baptism. What about them? If there is none other name given under heaven whereby man must be saved - and that is true, and they have lived and died without even hearing that name, and if baptism is essential - and it is, and they died without even the invitation to accept it, where are they now?
That is hard to explain. It describes most of the human family.
There are several religions larger than most Christian denominations, and together they are larger than all of them combined. Their adherents for centuries have lived and died and never heard the word baptism. What is the answer for them?
That is a most disturbing question. What power would establish one Lord and one baptism, and then allow it to be that most of the human family never comes within its influence? With that question unanswered, the vast majority of the human family must be admitted to be lost, and against any reasonable application of the law of justice or of mercy, either. How could Christianity itself be sustained?
When you find the true church you will find the answer to that disturbing question.
If a church has no answer for that, how can it lay claim to be His Church? He is not willing to write off the majority of the human family who were never baptized.
Those who admit in puzzled frustration that they have no answer to this cannot lay claim to authority to administer to the affairs of the Lord on the earth, or to oversee the work by which all mankind must be saved.
We have been authorized to perform baptisms vicariously so that when they hear the gospel preached and desire to accept it, that essential ordinance will have been performed. They need not ask for any exemption from that essential ordinance. Indeed, the Lord Himself was not exempted from it.
Here and now then, we move to accomplish the work to which we are assigned. We are busily engaged in that kind of baptism. We gather the records of our kindred dead, indeed, the records of the entire human family; and in sacred temples in baptismal fonts designed as those were anciently, we perform these sacred ordinances.
“Strange,” one may say. It is passing strange. It is transcendent and supernal. The very nature of the work testifies that He is our Lord, that baptism is essential, that He taught the truth.
And so the question may be asked, “You mean you are out to provide baptism for all who have ever lived?”
And the answer is simply, “Yes.” For we have been commanded to do so.
“You mean for the entire human family? Why, that is impossible. If the preaching of the gospel to all who are living is a formidable challenge, then the vicarious work for all who have ever lived is impossible indeed.”
To that we say, “Perhaps, but we shall do it anyway.”
I bear witness that this work is true, that God lives, that Jesus is the Christ, that there is on this earth today a prophet of God to lead modern Israel in this great obligation. I know that the Lord lives and that He broods anxiously over the work for the redemption of the dead, in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.
- President Boyd K. Packer, "The Redemption of the Dead" Churchwide General Conference, October 5, 1975, Church Ensign Magazine, Nov. 1975, page 97
And for those who have died without a knowledge of the truth, a way has been provided. Sacred ordinances can be performed by the faithful living for the waiting dead. Houses of the Lord known as temples dot the land. As Elijah the prophet testified, the hearts of the fathers have been turned to the children, and the children to the fathers. (DandC 110: 14–15.) None shall be denied. All shall have opportunity for eternal blessings.
- Thomas S. Monson, "An Invitation to Exaltation" broadcast by Satellite during an church-wide investigator’s fireside, Salt Lake City, 1 March 1984. Also “An Invitation to Exaltation,” Church Ensign Magazine, July 1984, page 69
In the Church we hold sufficient authority to perform all of the ordinances necessary to redeem and to exalt the whole human family. And, because we have the keys to the sealing power, what we bind in proper order here will be bound in heaven. Those keys–the keys to seal and bind on earth, and have it bound in heaven–represent the consummate gift from our God. With that authority we can baptize and bless, we can endow and seal, and the Lord will honor our commitments.
The Prophet Joseph Smith said he was frequently asked the question, “ ‘Can we not be saved without going through with all those ordinances, etc?’ I would answer, No, not the fullness of salvation. Jesus said, ‘There are many mansions in my Father’s house, and I will go and prepare a place for you.’ House here named should have been translated kingdom; and any person who is exalted to the highest mansion has to abide a celestial law, and the whole law too” (History of the Church, 6:184).
- Boyd K. Packer, "The Holy Temple," Church Ensign Magazine, Feb. 1995, page 32
The whole New Testament centers on the Resurrection of the Lord. The message is that all are to be resurrected. Every scripture and every motivation that apply to missionary work have their application to ordinance work for the dead.
You must know that baptism for someone who is dead is quite as essential as baptism for someone who is living. There is no difference in the importance of it. One by one it must happen. They must do it here while living, or it must be done for them here after they die.
- President Boyd K. Packer, “Your Family History: Getting Started,” Church Ensign Magazine, Aug. 2003, page 12, also President Packer’s book "The Holy Temple"
The great work of providing the saving ordinances for our kindred dead is a vital part of the threefold mission of the Church. We do this work for a purpose, which is to redeem our dead ancestors. Temple work is essential for both us and our kindred dead who are waiting for these saving ordinances to be done for them. It is essential because “we without them cannot be made perfect; neither can they without us be made perfect.” 3 They need the saving ordinances, and we need to be sealed to them. For this reason it is important that we trace our family lines so that no one is left out.
Searching for our kindred dead isn’t just a hobby. It is a fundamental responsibility for all members of the Church. We believe that life continues after death and that all will be resurrected. 4 We believe that families may continue in the next life if they have kept the special covenants made in one of the sacred temples under the authority of God. We believe that our deceased ancestors can also be eternally united with their families when we make covenants in their behalf in the temples. Our deceased forebears may accept these covenants, if they choose to do so, in the spirit world. 5
The great vicarious work for our kindred dead in our temples demonstrates both the justice and the fairness of the gospel of Jesus Christ. The Prophet Joseph Smith explained the terrible dilemma which would face God’s children without temple work for our dead. Said he: “One dies and is buried, having never heard the Gospel of reconciliation; to the other the message of salvation is sent, he hears and embraces it, and is made the heir of eternal life. Shall the one become the partaker of glory and the other be consigned to hopeless perdition? Is there no chance for his escape?” 6 Fortunately our ancestors will have the opportunity to receive and accept the saving ordinances as we identify them and complete these sacred ordinances for them by proxy. We do for them what they cannot do for themselves. It is a very satisfying experience.
- First Presidency, James E. Faust, “The Phenomenon That Is You,” Ensign, Nov. 2003, page 53
The greatest responsibility in this world that God has laid upon us, is to seek after our dead.” Because we cannot be saved without them, “it is necessary that those who have gone before and those who come after us should have salvation in common with us, and thus hath God made it obligatory to man,” says the Prophet Joseph Smith. (LDS Church Publication, Times and Seasons 5:616.)
From this, then, we see that while it is necessary to preach the gospel in the nations of the earth and to do all other good works in the Church, yet the greatest commandment given us, and made obligatory, is temple work in our own behalf and in behalf of our dead.
Again the Prophet says: “Baptism for the dead is the only way that men can appear as saviors upon Mount Zion. The proclamation of the first principles of the gospel was a means of salvation to man individually, but men, by actively engaging in rites of salvation substitutionally, become instrumental in bringing multitudes of their kin into the kingdom of God. … This doctrine appears glorious inasmuch as it exhibits the greatness of divine compassion and benevolence in the extent of the plan of human salvation. This glorious truth is well calculated to enlarge the understanding, and to sustain the soul under troubles, difficulties, and distresses. … This doctrine presents in a clear light the wisdom and mercy of God in preparing an ordinance for the salvation of the dead being baptized by proxy, their names recorded in heaven, and they judged according to the deeds done in the body. This doctrine was the burden of the scriptures. Those Saints who neglect it, in behalf of their deceased relatives, do it at theperil of their own salvation.” (LDS Church Publication, Times and Seasons 2:577–78.)
The reason our own salvation stands in jeopardy is because it is necessary that parents and children not only receive the ordinance of baptism, but they must also be joined together from generation to generation. It is necessary for us to go into the temples, be baptized, confirmed, and receive all the ordinances for our dead, just as we receive them for ourselves. (See Official History of the LDS Church 6:365.)
“But how are they to become saviors on Mount Zion? By building their temples, erecting their baptismal fonts, and going forth and receiving all the ordinances, baptisms, confirmations, washings, anointings, ordinations and sealing powers upon their heads, in behalf of all their progenitors who are dead, and redeem them that they may come forth in the first resurrection and be exalted to thrones of glory with them; and herein is the chain that binds the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the children to the fathers, which fulfills the mission of Elijah. And I would to God this temple was now done, that we might go into it, and go to work and improve our time, and make use of the seals while they are on earth.
“The Saints have not too much time to save and redeem their dead, and gather together their living relatives, that they may be saved also, before the earth will be smitten, and the [consummation] decreed falls upon the world.” (Official History of the LDS Church 6:183–84.)
These passages emphasize the importance of the work for the dead, for we cannot be saved without them, nor can they be saved without us. Our salvation cannot be accomplished unless the fathers and the children are joined together, bound, sealed in perfect family order. Husbands must be united by authority with their wives, and children to their parents, until theirs is one grand family composed of all the faithful from the beginning to the end of time, with Adam, our progenitor, standing in his calling as the father of us all.
- Church President, Joseph Fielding Smith, “Salvation Universal,” Ensign, Feb. 1971, page 2
| Mormons have a right to their temples and weird beliefs.
They cross the line when they use non-mormon names in their rituals.
Some people leave behind massive estates, original artworks, and a long legacy of public service when they die. Most of us leave a modest estate, our good name, and the fleeting memory some have of us, with instructions for a funeral and possibly a headstone.
Mormons then, step in and take over the names and the memories. They need names to keep their temples operating and to extort tithes from members. They use the names of non-mormon dead and exmos for their own purposes. It makes no difference if a person has left other instructions for his/her final end.
If someone says they don't want a dead-dunking, mormons say they are stupid and bigotted, that they're persecuting well meaning church people who only want to give them a "gift."
There's a problem with this. Stalkers give unwanted gifts. Shyster marketers give unwanted gifts. Manipulative inlaws give unwanted gifts. If someone doesn't want a gift, they have a right to say no.
Of course mormons do claim that the dead can say no. But their rituals don't include this possibility in the wording which declares every dead victim as a member of the mormon church. Mormons believe that the dead are in spirit prisons with mishie boys as guards who teach them the gospel day in and day out until the inmates see the light. Then, comes the proxy baptism and the inmates are allowed to eternally progress in the morg feeding chain in the sky.
If they refuse the "gift," they get to dwell in a lowlife kingdom forever where no one has family or genitals, but they're happier than anyone in the earthly existence.
A fair reasonable choice? Nope.
| From the Salt Lake Tribune:
Mormons have not only posthumously baptized President Barack Obama's mother into their faith, but they may have performed the ritual for the president's African ancestors as well, including his father, grandfather and great-grandfather, according to researcher Helen Radkey.
She has uncovered records in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saint's new FamilySearch database that include personalized identification numbers for Obama's relatives, including his father, Barack Obama Sr.
The president's father was Muslim, but later in life became a nonbeliever, according to the family.
Records in the FamilySearch database do not indicate if the "baptism for the dead" ceremony was actually performed in an LDS temple, saying only that the information is "not available."
| For the most of us, I'm sure we didn't have any spectral expressions of gratitude, from relatives or anyone that we've done temple rituals for that warrants our long pilgrimage to a temple. (For those who live FAR from a temple, the costs in gas, travel time, (example one temple in the whole country, or entire region. For myself I had to go down to Cardston, I'm sure this was a motivating factor for building a temple in Edmonton, (you have to go through CALGARY 3 hours, then 2 additional hours to Cardston). For Vancouverites you had to go to Seattle). Manitoba doesn't even have one. And Canadian provinces tend to be large, What about Mormons living throughout the province and have to drive FAR to get to that one tiny dot? (Again a reason why they built the temple in Edmonton (Which is sad, because That would really help the less actives quit).
Anyways, the wear and tear on our vehicles, gas, time, (usually the entire ward goes, and we do ten dunks per turn (so In my career as a Mormon estimate over 100+). This is a HUGE sacrifice we're doing on behalf for someone who may or may not even accept the 6 discussions (and I'm pretty sure, even Missionaries up there are avoided lol).
So you'd think that when we do these water in the brain inducing rituals, it's a HUGE gesture, yet I'm sure you guys as I did, saw, felt, heard nothing. Not even a pat on the back for a job well done. And driving in a car full of idiot, wasting gas, wearing thin our oil, and knocking a few hours off our car's life span at least once a month, IS A JOB WELL DONE in itself. I can't even tally how many times I heard of the Kamakazi pilot attacking the Hawaii temple story. Or even the boys who want to try and vandalize the Cardston temple but couldn't find it even though it's the big obnoxious building that you can see from a distance. (resembles a mythical magical building from a distance the way it hangs on the valley like that).
This is a significant gesture of mercy from us, as we can't stand to see them in cages and we have to "free the birdies" (Mormon urban legend). So that they could at last have the fullness of the gossip AND avoid getting dunked because getting dunked 10 times and having water go into your eyeballs through your sinuses really sucks. (Yes I did pinch my nose). On this note, how in the hell can a GHOST even get baptized. or wet? Don't you need to be a solid? anyways... The stories of people waiting for hundreds of years to play dunk the clown. Stories of how day after day for hundreds of years (or however long the records go back)... of asking has the work been done yet? pissing off St Peter. (Seriously his job must suck worse that GREG DODGE). And not even a THANK YOU? Or a simple feeling of peace to even encourage us to come out this far?
The protocols of polite society customizes that if you're the recipient of a genuine act of good will aid. You show your appreciation to the good deed doer, by saying Thank you. Or they teach us this in GRADE school.
There is nothing but ingratitude in Mormon society from insensitive insist of paying tithing in response from the pleas of mercy from distressed Saints.. Why should Mormon Ghosts be any different right? It's just give tithe and fuck off. The ghost say do work for us and fuck off.
Like now at least when the judgment day comes and we're all resurrected they could be awaken first during the Morning right? That they wouldn't have to parish for being misled or something.
It's like we're being shafted on our tips, for DOING A GOOD JOB. And getting dead dunked in a sub zero Necropolis Grants Tomb Lenin's Tomb, or Sung Jong Il looking tomb (Cardston baptism font chamber, was very Cubist Art Deco, marble http://www.moroni10.com/LDS/Temple_Tour/baptistry.html (the photo doesn't do the chamber justice).
It was a large square looking thing (like a palace dining room), There was this balcony section up. and it was VERY VERY COLD in the cold Canadian winters. Icy Cold Marble, which oddly felt very very comfortable and Smooth on my soggy feet. lol. In the photo, It's a flash, because the walls were thick nuclear proof bank vault marble granite things. Just like a tomb. Like during winter with the ugly pruned trees of Cardston, I can see it being used as a fortress against a horde of Zombies. (Perhaps those who are ungrateful for desecrating their memories and honor in this blasphemous manner!
So was it just me, or did you guys also have first row seats to the Ungrateful dead concerts?
Hell I even did the work for one the clan of one of my YSA girls. All these English blokes from Suffield. (It's in my diary). Not a Well done Cheers Mate? when I'm sure if I got them a pint at the pub after ship building day, I'd get a cheers mate.
Sheesh. Ungrateful dead. Like what happened to all those stories of some Saints seeing visions of blissful and rested spirits in their Mormon Underwares, freaking us out smiling at us standing over our beds.
It's because I'm a cat isn't it?
Well as the saying goes. Sheesh that's gratitude for ya.
| DNA shows no Jewish ancestry for the American Indian. The Book of Mormon is supposed to be written for the descendants of the people in the Book. The LDS historically considered the American Indian those people. Apologists are now arguing that the Book of Mormon people were only a small group in a vast population of "others".
Now for a different twist let's consider the Jewish idea.
Why should the LDS "allow Jewish Holocaust victims the be the only category exempt from Church doctrine that calls for vicarious bapstism for the dead"? Why only this category?
Thomas S. Monson's ancestors were in a wagon company whose stray ox led to a massacre on my wife's family. For nine years an LDS.org website called that massacre a "significant victory" for General Harney. My wife finally got it changed. We have the letter from COB.
The temple work for some of her family was already done, by non-relatives. The sources were taken from a U.S. Federal census. This temple work was done for a person who had survived that massacre. Christianity had been forced on his grand children and great-grand children. They had been taken from their families and placed in boarding schools, etc. They were strong-willed enough to never forget who they are.
At this time the LDS say that the only exemption is for the Jewish Holocaust survivors. We shall see.
The Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act is federal law. The LDS are quick to argue that nobody owns their ancestors. The American Indian are in a very unique position right now. Names taken from federal documents just might fall under a protected status in this case. It took nine years to get the LDS to be historically correct on their website. We are patient but persistent.
No American Indian family name should be freely taken and proxied into LDS records. Neither should these names be marketed for profit. And in cases where the name is of historical and cultural significance, it just might be that one family member has no more right to give that name to the church than an individual could give a significant artifact to a museum. The tribe must also grant consent in cases of certain objects. In the future it might include family names. We shall see.
Jewish Holocaust Baptims:
| Talked Today With An Official Of The Anti-Defamation League About The Necro-Dunking Of Simon Wiesenthal's Parents. It's Essentially The Straw That's Broken The Camel's Back |
Friday, Feb 17, 2012, at 08:13 AM
Original Author(s): Steve Benson
Topic: BAPTISM FOR THE DEAD -Link To MC Article-
| ↑ |
| Talked today with an official of the Anti-Defamation League about the necro-dunking of Simon Wiesenthal's parents. It's essentially the straw that's broken the camel's back . . .
During that conversation, I was informed that the national director of the ADL, Abraham Foxman, is well-versed on the Mormon doctrine of ritualized dead-dunking and that the Wiesenthal episode has brought the issue into starker focus for the ADL. (Abe has demanded that the practice stop, given that its continuance amounts to a second murder of the Jewish identity of Jewish Holocaust victims. He has also notified the Mormon church that continual ADL monitoring of the church will help, he hopes, keep it from future breaking of the its promise to discontinue the dead-dunking of exterminated Jews. He has asked the Mormon church to implement more stringent internal controls on this dead-dunking practice. He has also called for the Mormon church to consider abandoning its practice of dead-dunking not only Jews but other non-Mormons).
I informed the ADL official with whom I spoke that Mormons not only dead-dunk Jewish victims of the Holocaust, they actually regard themselves to be adopted into the covenant of the ancient Jewish bloodline.
I told him that Mormons are given patriarchal blessings, where the name of the tribe of Israel to which the Mormon recipient of this blessing has supposed Mormon-asserted linkage is pronounced upon the head of the recipient.
The official said he was not aware of that.
I responded that what Mormons do, in effect, is to invade Jewish genealogical tribes, declare these tribes as their own, then extinguish the Jewishness of actual Jews via necro-dunking them into the Mormon church.
He was not pleased to hear that news.
I plan on talking with Abe Foxman about this in some detail, when it is convenient for him to do so (we have known each other since the 1980s when I joined him on an ADL trip to Israel, and most recently met up with him last October when he came through Phoenix).
This is not going away.
| A letter was read to Mormons yesterday. Members are only to research and baptize their own family members. Do not baptize "celebrities and Holocaust Jews".
They're conveniently ignoring the fact that these names were, in all likelihood, harvested through the extraction program, not submitted by individual members as part of their family ancestry.
The Church's emphasis on blaming errant members accomplishes several goals: it implies that rogue members, not the Church itself, are responsible for the offensive submissions, it effectively hides the extraction program by deflecting attention towards members, and it implies that the Church can't keep track of all the names that have been submitted (therefore it's not the Church's fault that some slipped through).
Do the math. Faithful members are encouraged to attend the temple at least once a month. Youth groups do baptisms for the dead on top of that. Every ordinance must be performed on behalf of a real, deceased individual with a recorded name, birth date, and death date. Since there aren't enough ancestral names to support the desired level of temple attendance (and the goal is to do ordinances for everyone who's ever lived), those names gotta come from somewhere -- hence the extraction program.
Without a steady new supply of converts to widen the pool of available ancestral names, the shortage of eligible dead folks only worsens as successive generations of BIC members exhaust their ancestral lineage and must rely on names provided by the temple. Is anyone really surprised that some deceased individuals have had ordinances performed on their behalf multiple times? It's just that we notice the famous ones more, like Anne Frank. There's probably plenty of duplication going on with non-famous dead people, too.
The Church keeps building more and more new temples, as well. In order to keep them full of patrons, even more names must be constantly generated. There are, what, 136 now, plus 15 under construction and 15 more announced? If we assume even a few hundred ordinances per day per temple, it adds up quickly: if there are 275 working days per year, and 200 ordinances per day for each of those 136 temples (a modest number), in one year alone 7,480,000 names would be required. Theoretically, names are not supposed to be "recycled." In a two-year period, say 2011 and 2012, nearly 16 million new names of deceased individuals would be needed (excluding all the names that have already been done).
Of course they're not going to mention the extraction program. Without it, temple work would be dead in the water within a very short time.
| Last week, parliament asked the minister of the interior formal questions about the cooperation of archives with the mormons.
The minister (or rather his deputy) had no problem with it since it saves money (the mormons digitalize the archives for free so they can process the names in their International Houses of Handshakes).
But parliament isn't satisfied with the answer. Five parties (three big ones, two minor ones) have now asked for a debate in parliament.
"The dead may not have a right to privacy but there is such a thing as respect," one MP says. "The government may not be able to prevent this religious mumbo-jumbo but she can see to it that she doesn't actively contribute to it."
"As far as I'm concerned," the MP continues, "we are going to strongly advise against this cooperation [between the mormons and the archives]. Maybe the archivists can create an ethical code. And maybe the law on archiving should contain a provision about respecting the private sphere of the deceased."
| From the Huffington Post:
A researcher who has found documentation that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was performing proxy posthumous baptisms of Holocaust victims, celebrities and other non-Mormons said that relatives of Rep. Paul Ryan, the Roman Catholic running mate of the country's most prominent Mormon, Mitt Romney, were on a list of future baptisms or had the ritual performed on their behalf.
Helen Radkey told The Huffington Post that despite recent security measures, she found the names of Ryan's father, grandfather and great-grandfather in a genealogical database open only to Mormons.
Radkey, whose research is independent, said a search for first names and cross-referencing of dates and birthplaces with information available online revealed entries for:
"Why are names of Paul Ryan's deceased family in the Mormon database of posthumous rites? This is a Catholic family ... with roots in Ireland on his dad's side," Radkey said.
- Paul Murray Ryan, the Wisconsin congressman's father. He died of a heart attack in 1986 when Ryan was 16.
- Stanley Martin Ryan, Ryan's paternal grandfather, who was born in Janesville in 1898 and died in 1957.
- Patrick William Ryan, the paternal great-grandfather, who founded the family construction company and passed away in 1917.
| "1. Isn't baptizing dead people just for people who never heard of Mormonism? I thought so. So doesn't baptizing dead people who rejected it waste time?"
- According to Mormon Doctrine and ritual, everyone HAS to have been baptized in order to receive the fullness of the gospel. Even if they heard it in this life and rejected it, that only means that they didn't really know what they were giving up. When they are dead, they'll see the truth and accept it then. So, anyone who is dead, if they can determine their name and an approximation for their birthday, they will be "baptized" in the temple, probably more than once. I think Amelia Earhart was up to 9 times last time I heard. Hitler has been baptized countless times (everyone deserves a chance after all! Look how righteous and forgiving I am, I did Hitler's work!). I do not think they even do a good job of determining if the person was a full blown member while they were alive. If they are dead, they are up for grabs.
"2. Does it strike anyone else as disrespectful to violate the wishes of the deceased?"
To any non-mormon, this is incredibly disrespectful. When asked about such disrespect, a mormon will simply answer that the dead person in question can choose to accept it or not, as if that means that the post-humus conversion of their loved one isn't any big deal. And to those to state that this is not a "conversion" I would simply ask, what ritual is used to initiate a person into full membership into the church... What's that? that's right, baptism.
"3. I understand that posthumous rituals like awards or exhonerations are mainly for the living. But what about if most of the living don't want that ritual to happen? Shouldn't you defer to the majority in that case?"
The church has magnanimously stated openly that only family members should submit names for temple work. However that does not stop family members in part member families (such as yours) from entering names for people they know have stated that they want nothing to do with the church.
Remember, the members of the church truly believe that these things HAVE to be done to allow them entrance into the celestial kingdom. The God they believe in has decreed that these ordinances must be done by a living body, so while they may accept or reject the "gospel" in the afterlife, it won't matter until someone does "the work" for them in a temple. Why anyone would believe in such a God, I know wonder, why did I ever believe such nonsense.
The only time the church has ever publicly stated that a group is exempt from this practice, that I know of, is Jewish holocaust victims. Families of these people were understandably upset that their loved ones who literally died for who they were and their religious beliefs were being post-humorously converted to the mormon version of Christianity. They sued the church and the church backed off the practice of actively using the holocaust lists. But, if a family member submits the name, it will still be used. They will not go out of their way to create an exclusion list and check against it.
I have no doubt that even though I have resigned my membership that as soon as I pass on and the church gets wind of it, my name will automatically switch from "Alive/resigned" to "dead/temple work ready" status. There will be little if anything I or anyone I know can do about it. (and really, I'll be dead, I won't really care at that point)
All in all, I now see this practice as a way for the church to keep it's members busy and make them feel self important ("I helped save 3 people today because I went to the temple and did their work!") while alienating other people and stomping all over their belief and disrespecting their wishes.
| How can Dead People Covenant to Wear Garments: (Garments are the underwear that Mormons receive in the Temple. When you are placed in the garments, you are given the following commandment and promise, and are subsequently asked in interviews by your bishop if you wear your church-authorized garments both day and night) I place this Garment upon you, which you must wear throughout your life. It represents the Garment given to Adam when he was found naked in the Garden of Eden, and is called the Garment of the Holy Priesthood. Inasmuch as you do not defile it, but are true and faithful to your covenants, it will be a shield and a protection to you against the power of the destroyer until you have finished your work here on earth.
How can Dead Women Covenant to keep the Law of Obedience (women): You and each of you solemnly covenant and promise before God, angels, and these witnesses at this altar that you will each observe and keep the law of the Lord and hearken unto the counsel of your husband as he hearkens unto the counsel of the Father. Each of you bow your head and say "Yes."
How can Dead Men Covenant to keep the Law of Obedience (men): You and each of you solemnly covenant and promise before God, angles, and these witnesses at this altar that you will obey the law of God, and keep his commandants. Each of you bow your head and say "yes".
How can Dead People Covenant to keep the Law of Sacrifice: The posterity of Adam down to Moses, and from Moses to Jesus Christ offered up the first fruits of the field, and the firstlings of the flock, which continued until the death of Jesus Christ, which ended sacrifice by the shedding of blood. And as Jesus Christ has laid down his life for the redemption of mankind, so we should covenant to sacrifice all that we possess, even our own lives if necessary, in sustaining and defending the Kingdom of God. You and each of you solemnly covenant and promise before God, angels, and these witnesses at this alter that you will observe and keep the Law of Sacrifice, as contained in the Holy Scriptures, as it has been explained to you. Each of you bow your head and say "yes."
How can Dead People Covenant to keep the Tokens, Names, and Signs: (A token is a specific handshake, a name is a specific word or phrase, and a sign is a specific gesture with the hands and arms. The temple endowment has 4 tokens, each with an associated name and sign. When the tokens are given, you promise never to reveal it, nor the accompanying name and sign. This is the introduction to the first token which, for the purposes of this page, will represent the promise of secrecy regarding all of the names, signs, and tokens of the temple) We desire to impress upon your minds the sacred character of the First Token of the Aaronic Priesthood, with its accompanying name and sign, as well as that of all the other tokens of the Holy Priesthood, with their names, and signs, which you will receive in the temple this day. They are most sacred, and are guarded by solemn covenants and obligations made in the presence of God, Angels and these witnesses to hold them sacred and under no condition, even at the peril of your life, will you ever divulge them, except at a certain place in the temple that will be shown you hereafter.
How can Dead People Covenant to keep the Law of the Gospel: We are required to give unto you the Law of the Gospel as contained in the Holy Scriptures; to give unto you also a charge to avoid all lightmindedness, loud laughter, evil speaking of the Lord's anointed, the taking of the name of God in vain, and every other unholy and impure practice, and to cause you to receive these by covenant. You and each of you covenant and promise before God, angels, and these witnesses at this altar, that you will observe and keep the Law of the Gospel and this charge as it has been explained to you. Each of you bow your head and say "yes."
How can Dead People Covenant to keep the Law of Chastity: We are instructed to give unto you the law of Chastity, which is that you shall have no sexual relations except with your husband or wife to whom you are legally and lawfully wedded. You and each of you covenant and promise before God, angels, and these witnesses that you will observe and keep the Law of Chastity, as it has been explained to you. Each of you bow your head and say "yes."
How can Dead People Covenant to keep the Law of Consecration: You and each of you covenant and promise before God, angels, and these witnesses at this altar, that you do accept the Law of Consecration as contained in the Doctrine and Covenants, in that you do consecrate yourselves, your time, talents, and everything with which the Lord has blessed you, or with which he may bless you, to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, for the building up of the Kingdom of God on the earth and for the establishment of Zion.
| Jospeh Smith's Uninspired Invention Of Necro-Dunking, Thanks To The Unexpected Death Of His Brother, Alvin |
Wednesday, Aug 7, 2013, at 08:45 AM
Original Author(s): Steve Benson
Topic: BAPTISM FOR THE DEAD -Link To MC Article-
| ↑ |
| Joseph Smith didn’t receive any supposed Bibiically-based, divinely-inspired “revelation” when announcing advent of the Mormon docrine of proxy baptism for the dead (known popularly in certain circles as "necro-dunking”).
Contrary to popular Mormon belief, this necro-notion wasn’t instituted in order to provide salvation for deceased people who went to their graves as non-Mormons,
Rather, it was concocted by Smith out of his deep, personal, psychological need to deal with the unexpected death of his own brother Alvin combined with pressure he was receiving from from his grief-stricken family to get Smith to something about it that would all make them feel better.
That assessment, of course, isn’t quite what you read in Mormon Sunday School manuals.
To be sure, as the LDS Church's official gospel lesson manuals spin it, God revealed the doctrine of necro-dunking to Joseph Smith after the death of his older brother Alvin within the supposed context of a grand plan to save otherwise condemned dead non-Mormons from themselves. (And it didn’t help matters for the sad Smith family to hear a Protestant clergyman tell them Alvin was going to hell).
This is how the Mormon Church peddles it in its choreographed and correlated instructional materials:
"When Alvin died, the family asked a Presbyterian minister in Palmyra, New York, to officiate at his funeral. As Alvin had not been a member of the minister’s congregation, the clergyman asserted in his sermon that Alvin could not be saved. William Smith, Joseph’s younger brother, recalled: '[The minister] … intimated very strongly that [Alvin] had gone to hell, for Alvin was not a church member, but he was a good boy and my father did not like it.'
"In January 1836, many years after Alvin’s death, Joseph Smith received a vision of the celestial kingdom, in which he saw that Alvin, as well as his mother and father, would someday inherit that kingdom. Joseph 'marveled how it was that [Alvin] had obtained an inheritance in that kingdom, seeing that he had departed this life before the Lord had set his hand to gather Israel the second time, and had not been baptized for the remission of sins' (DandC 137:6). The voice of the Lord then came to Joseph, declaring:
“'All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God; also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom; for I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts' (DandC 137:7–9).
"On August 15, 1840, the Prophet Joseph Smith preached at a funeral in Nauvoo and, for the first time in public, taught the doctrine of salvation for the dead. According to Simon Baker, who was present, the Prophet began by testifying that the 'gospel of Jesus Christ brought glad tidings of great joy.' He read most of 1 Corinthians 15 and explained that "the Apostle was talking to a people who understood baptism for the dead, for it was practiced among them." He then declared that “people could now act for their friends who had departed this life, and that the plan of salvation was calculated to save all who were willing to obey the requirements of the law of God.”
"One month after the funeral address, the Prophet visited his father, who was very ill and near death. The Prophet discussed with his father the doctrine of baptism for the dead, and Father Smith’s thoughts turned to his beloved son Alvin. Father Smith asked that the work be done for Alvin 'immediately.' Just minutes before he died, he declared that he saw Alvin.5 In the latter part of 1840, the Smith family rejoiced as Hyrum received the ordinance of baptism for his brother Alvin." ("Redemption for the Dead," in "Teachings of President of the Church: Joseph Smith", in Chapter 35, 2007, see pp. 401-11)
Of course, that’s a warm and fuzzy story, but the reality of the situation was that Alvin's death prompted a great deal of stress among the Smith family about that state of his eternal reward, given that he had not died a baptized Mormon:
As Dan Vogel explains in his book, "Religious Seekers and the Advent of Mormonism":
"After Alvin Smith's death in 1823, the Smith family was forced to worry about his eternal status when a minister implied that he had gone to hell because he was unchurched and probably unbaptized. . . . Seven years later, on 21 January 1836, Smith received a revelation that 'all who have died without a knowledge of this Gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God.' . . . Later, in 1840, when Smith instituted the doctrine of baptism for the dead in Nauvoo, his brother Hyrum was baptized for Alvin."
(Dan Vogel, "Religious Seekers and the Advent of Mormonism" [Salt Lake City, Utah: Signature Books, 1988], pp. 162-63)
Mark A. Scherer, World Church Historian for the then Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, explains how Alvin's death jump-started Joseph down the road to what turned out to be a piece-by-piece construction of the dead-dunking doctrine as a way to placate Smith and family’s personal sense of loss–while giving it the veneer of Christian authority by wrapping his concoction in Biblical verse.
"In the past we have dealt with some rather strange and controversial issues but always without being judgmental and always in proper historical context. . . . I would like to explore another: baptism for the dead.
"Alvin Smith, Joseph Jr.'s oldest brother, died suddenly on 19 November 1823 without being baptized into any denomination. In his 1894 account of Alvin's funeral, youngest brother, William Smith, described the service. William stated that Reverend Stockton, who preached the funeral sermon, berated poor Alvin for not being baptized and then announced that Alvin's soul had gone to hell. Stockton's declarations weighed heavily on the close-knit family and their concerns for Alvin's salvation lingered.”
Scherer notes how Smith hadn’t helped matters much when –as Mormonism’s prophet–he declared early on that those who weren’t baptized couldn’t get into Mormon heaven.
Oops. Alvin died an unbaptized non-Mormon. What the hell do we do now?
It’s necro-dunking to the rescue, as Scherer unfolds Smith family fear:
"Family concerns heightened in 1832 when [Joseph Smith] the [P]rophet revealed that those who were not baptized could not receive the Celestial Kingdom (DandC Section 76).
“But then, four years later, Joseph had a vision of the Celestial Kingdom where, strangely enough, he saw Alvin. Hearing this good news should have assured the family but events suggest that they still feared for Alvin's soul.”
The pressure was on. Scherer explains:
"On 14 September 1840, 69- year-old Joseph Smith Sr. lay on his deathbed in Nauvoo, Illinois. In this solemn moment the dying patriarch quietly called for Joseph Jr. and again expressed concern for Alvin. The seer responded to his father, and to those gathered by his bedside, by announcing the privilege of the Saints to be baptized for the dead. Possibly Joseph Jr. had interpreted I Corinthians 15 as justification for the ritual.”
The result was exactly what the doctor order. Scherer writes:
"Baptisms for the dead satisfied an important need in the historic Mormon culture. It offered the surviving Saints assurance that their loved ones, left behind in graves from Kirtland, Independence, and Far West, as well as those buried in Nauvoo, were secure in the afterlife.
"And, as in Alvin's case, the Saints were comforted in their concerns that deceased loved ones who were not affiliated with the [Mormon] church could now join them in the Celestial Kingdom.”
Relieved Mormons were so glad to get the good news that they eagerly started dead-dunking even before a baptismal font was built.
"A few days after [Joseph[ the [S]eer's pronouncement, baptisms for deceased family members began in the Mississippi River, but without revelatory sanction. Then, on 19 January 1841, Joseph provided further instruction in what would become Section 107. In the following months, more documents, including Section 109 and 110, were added to the canon relating to this salvation rite.
"Public demonstration of the highly sacred ritual became a concern for the Nauvoo church leadership. So, in the October 1841 General Conference, Smith halted further proxy baptisms until a font in the [Nauvoo] temple, presently under construction, could be erected. Not surprisingly, temple construction dramatically accelerated.
"In the following spring, as soon as workers enclosed the temple font area, baptisms for the dead continued. The Saints used a temporary wooden font while workers chiseled out a huge stone font perched on the backs of twelve stone oxen. Baptism for the dead was the first of many rituals to be performed exclusively within the confines of the temple."
(Mark A. Scherer, "Through the Mists of Time: Chats with the Church Historian," February 2001)
And it wasn’t just Smith’s family that was hit hard by Alvin’s death. It had rocked Joseph’s world, as well. In fact, so impacted was Joseph by his older brother's death that Alvin was one of the first in line to be proxy baptized–especially after Joseph's dying father told him to do so.
In his article, “'For This Ordinance Belongeth to My House': The Practice of Baptism for the Dead Outside the Nauvoo Temple," BYU Associate Professor in BYU's Department of Church History Alexander L. Baugh writes about how Alvin got bumped to the front to get dunked:
"There is a good possibility that Alvin Smith, Joseph Smith’s older brother who died in November 1823, was one of the first deceased persons to have his baptismal work performed. Lucy Mack Smith recalled that just prior to her husband’s death, Joseph told his father 'that it was . . . the privilege of the Saints to be baptized for the dead,' whereupon Joseph Sr., requested that, 'Joseph be baptized for Alvin immediately.' . . . Significantly, Joseph Sr., died on 14 September 1840, less than a month after the Prophet first taught the doctrine of baptism for the dead . . . . If Joseph and the Smith family were true to their father’s request that Alvin’s baptism be done 'immediately,' the likelihood exists that it was performed sometime around mid- September.“
Talk about fast-actin’ reaction. But Joseph Sr. didn’t get everything he wanted, as Baugh notes:
"The record containing the early proxy ordinance information indicates that Hyrum acted as proxy (not Joseph, as Father Smith request ed), but does not give any other date than the year 1840."
Come to find out, however, Alvin was actually dead-dunked twice, apparently in order to make sure the Mormons got it right the second time (which, one might say, is no big deal since apparently many non-LDS dead folks have been multiple-necro-immersed over the ensuing years). As Baugh writes:
"The ordinance was performed for Alvin a second time, again by Hyrum in 1841, and was probably done after the font was completed and dedicated in the basement of the Temple. . . . A friend and contemporary of the Prophet, Aroet Hale, stated that Joseph Smith instructed the Saints 'to have the work done over as quick as the temple was finished, when it could be done more perfect.'"
(Alexander L. Baugh “'For This Ordinance Belongeth to My House': The Practice of Baptism for the Dead Outside the Nauvoo Temple," in "Mormon Historical Studies," p. 49)
Douglas James Davies, in his book, “Death, Ritual and Belief: The Rhetoric of Funerary Rites,” delves into the background of Joseph Smith’s reaction to his older brother’s untimely death, who died at age 25 after overdosing on calomel that he had taken to combat a bad case case of “bilious colic.” Strange but true, his brothers’s death hit Joseph so hard, in fact, that in order to deal with it he told his parents that he was going to marry Emma Hale in order to deal with his Alvin’s unexpected absence:
"Alvin, the elder brother of Joseph Smith, Jr., . . . died in November 1823 when Joseph was 18 years of age. Some two years after this Joseph told his parents that he had been so lonely since Alvin's death that he had decided to marry. This he did.“
That, apparently, wasn’t enough, since the local minister was telling the family that Alvin was languishing in the Regions of the Damned. To make matters worse,, while reports were afoot that Alvins’s body had been dug up.
Joseph was bummed, as Davies notes:
“But his dead brother still lay in Joseph's memory. The minister who buried Alvin said it was likely that he had gone to hell, while his corpse was said to have been disinterred by aggressive neighbors. The father, Joseph Smith, Sr., even went off to dig and see if that was true. Here was a brother's death that was entirely out of the ordinary and deeply traumatic for Joseph. Indeed, trauma is precisely the right word . . . “
Time for a revelation to brighten the occasion–one that would become a cornerstone of Mormonism’s strange docrines:
“ Indeed, trauma is precisely the right word, for some 13 years after the death Joseph received a profoundly influential vision of his brother.“
"This was in 1836, six years after the founding of Mormonism and at the newly-built Kirtland Temple. [H. Michael Marquardt, in his book, "The Rise of Mormonism: 1816-1844," reports that this ‘vision’ actually took place in the west end of the Kirtland temple, third floor].
“As part of the religious enthusiasm of this dramatic period of temple building and ritual activity, the dead brother returned to Joseph's mind. Religious enthusiasm and death stand should to shoulder. The event sparked in Joseph a desire to cope with the death of his brother and of others in a formal way. The outcome was scheme of ritual performed vicariously for the dead that would allow them access to salvation in the afterlife. This was the origin of what would become Mormonism's committment to its now well-known scheme of genealogical research followed by ritual baptism on behalf of the death."
(Douglas James Davies, "Death, Ritual and Belief: The Rhetoric of Funerary Rites," 2nd ed., revised [London: Continuum International Publishing Group, 2002], p. 222; and H. Michael Marquardt, “The Rise of Mormonism, 1816-1844” (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Xulon Press, 2005], p. 535)
Davies subsequently delves more deeply into Joseph Smith’s personal psyche–one which evidence a immense inner need for the manufacture of a miraculous way by which Smith could provide for himself, his family and his followers an other-worldly means by which they could reunite with their dead and otherwise non-saved loved ones once more. Never mind that the effort required an invention that followed neither early Mormon or historic Christian tradition. Something simply had to be done in order perk the people up, in the name of “don’t worry, be happy.”:
“ . . . [W]hat might we say about the origin of baptism for the dead? How did this tradion (for indeed it is now one of the determining features of life for dedicated Mormons) come about? This type of question is particularly importnatn for invented traditions that havae their source largely in one individual and for which individuall creativity may have muchy to do with that person’s biography and psychology.
“Certainly, baptism for the dead was not part of the Book of Mormon, nor was it among the practices of the first 10 years of the ;Mormon] church’s life. According to formal Mormon statements, it was first announced by Joseph Smith in a funeral sermon, only months before his own death.
“The obvious textual cue for this rite lies in a single biblical verse of St. Paul (1 Corinthians 15:29) which alludes to the fact that some are baptized on behalf of the dead. Paul uses that idea to reinforce his strong belief in the resurrection. In the Mormon case a revelation caome to Joseph Smith in January 1841 (Doctrine and Covenants 124:30) in which the Lord instructs that a temple be built to contain a baptismal font that would firmly contextualize the prace that had initially taken place in rivers. By November of that same year the font existed, with vicarious rites taking place.”
Davies then offers a reasonable explanation for what drove Smith to invent the central Moron doctrine of necro-dunking:
“My own intepretation of vicarious baptism, speculative as it is, focuses on Joseph Smith’s personal history of grief, especially that for his brother Alvin’s premature death, when Joseph was about 18 years old. ‘Grief-stricken’ is an entirely appropriate description of accounts of the family and of Joseph in response to Alvin’s death, itself some seven years before the formal inauguration of the [Mormon] church . . .
“[S]ome 13 years after Alvin’s death Joseph received a vision in which he saw Alvin in heaven, despite the fact that he had died prior to the Restoration.”
Now enter the family pressure for Joseph to spring Alvin from Hell:
When Joseph’s father was dying in 1840 he, too, reckoned to see Alvin. This suggests that moments of dying, death and funerals recalled Alvin and Joseph’s grief,, and helped frame Joseph’s vision of vicarious baptism, catalyzed by the biblical verse already mentioned. “
So, when all else fails, buic up and create a fairy tale, which is exactly what Joseph Smith did–for him, his family and his faith:
“Joseph’s personal history of grief and his empathy with the grief of others brought that biblical text to new life as part of the Restoration. Far from being debilitated by his loss and grief, Joseph emerged able to do something about his brother’s death; indeed all Mormons could answer that once perennial Christian conundrum of what would happen in eternity to those who had never heard the Christian message. They COULD hear it and benefit from it,m if on ly rites were performed for them on Earth. Viacrious baptism thus reflect the cluter of rites that constitute the primate rationale of Mormon ‘invented tradition’–namely that nothing is achieved in the heavens apart from a ritual action underlyhing them on Earth.”
(Douglas J. Davies, in “The Invention of Sacred Tradition,” James R. Lewis and Olva Hammer, ed [Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 2007], pp. 68-70)
In the end, the made-up doctrine of dead-dunking that kept Joseph and his family from going around the bend:
As one encyclopedia (not the Mormone one) observes, Joseph's brother Alvin "figured prominently in the establishment of the Mormon doctrine . . . of the practice of baptism for the dead.
“On January 21, 1836, after the completion of the Kirtland Temple, Joseph . . . claimed to have had a vision of the Celestial Kingdom. Smith stated that he saw his brother Alvin in the vision, and was surprised at his presence there since he died before the establishment of the [Mormon] church and its associated doctrines. . . . Smith stated that he then received a revelation concerning the salvation of those who die without hearing the gospel and their ability to receive the same opportunities as those who had the opportunity to hear it on earth. . . . . [In this revelation, found in Doctrine and Covenants 137:5] . . . Smith stated: 'I saw Father Adam and Abraham; and my father and my mother; my brother Alvin, that has long since slept.'"
("Encyclopedia: Alvin Smith (Mormon)")
Sleep well, tonight, folks. Thanks to Joseph Smith’s creative imagination, you’ll see your dearly departed dead dunked loved ones in the morning.
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