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Topics surrounding dis-fellowshipped Mormon, Grant Palmer. In effort to silence Grant Palmer, the LDS Church dis-fellowshipped him.
Notes on andquot;The Golden Potandquot;
Grant H. Palmer
Taken from Signature Books : http://www.signaturebooks.com/excerpts/insider's3.htm
I have received inquiries from people seeking additional information and clarification on my andquot;Moroni and the Golden Potandquot; chapter, found in An Insider's View of Mormon Origins. I both hoped for and expected such a discussion. I have never believed that andquot;The Golden Potandquot; was the only influence upon Joseph Smith's angel and golden-plates story. In my book, I have written that andquot;regardless of where the motifs in the New York narrative came from, most of them, including the basic storyline, were already present in some form in the environment.andquot;1 andquot;The Golden Pot,andquot; other treasure motifs, and his own personal experience all influenced Joseph Smith's narrative.
The Cumorah Cave and andquot;The Golden Potandquot;
Fifty-one of Palmyra's leading citizens said the Smith family was andquot;famous for visionary projects.andquot;2 One of these centered on a nearby glacial drumlin, later called Hill Cumorah. Orsamus Turner said there were andquot;[l]egends of hidden treasureandquot; associated with the hill and Martin Harris said that andquot;money [was] supposed to have been hidden [there] by the ancients.andquot; This is what drew the Smith family to the hill.3 Between 1820 and 1827, both father and son were digging at and having experiences with Cumorah's guardian spirit. Before, during, and after the golden plates saga, the Smiths were engaged in seeking its treasures.4 There is solid evidence that, during this eight-year period, Joseph Smith and his father both claimed to have seen into the caves of the surrounding hills using second sight. The family freely shared these experiences with others.5 Katherine, Joseph's sister, said that Joseph andquot;went frequently to the hill and upon returning would tell us, 'I have seen the records.'andquot;6 Lucy Smith and Henry and Martin Harris all heard from Joseph that it was by means of a seer stone that he was able to view the records hidden in the hill.7 Over time, Cumorah's cave became increasingly important to the family. Joseph Jr. informed Orson Pratt: andquot;[T]he grand repository of all the numerous records of the ancient nations of the western continent was located in the hill [Cumorah], and its contents under the charge of holy angels.andquot;8 According to the Smiths, Moroni was the hill's primary guardian.9
The magical worldview of the Smith family and the mystical world of the andquot;The Golden Potandquot; story are remarkably similar. Archivarius (meaning archivist) Lindhorst is the principle guardian of the treasures at his andquot;ancient residence,andquot; just as Moroni is the primary guardian of Cumorah's treasures. Young Anselmus has a working relationship with Lindhorst that centers around his house. Joseph Smith has a recurring relationship with Moroni at the latter's cave headquarters. Anselmus and Joseph Smith can conveniently walk to their nearby house and cave in a short time. The house and cave both open upon their approach. Anselmus is greeted by Lindhorst and Smith is greeted by Moroni. Both of these beings are the last archivists of their respective civilizations.10 They are in charge of vast treasures including numerous andquot;rolls of parchmentandquot;11 and from the destroyed civilization of Atlantis on one hand and plates of precious metal from the Jaredites and Nephites on the other hand.
Anselmus and Joseph meet with their guardians both inside and outside of their house or cave. Anselmus meets with Lindhorst andquot;in the garden,andquot; in andquot;high groves with trees,andquot; in the azure room where andquot;the grove opens,andquot; and under trees in meadows.12 Lucy Smith said andquot;the angel would meet [Joseph] in the garden,andquot; in a andquot;sacred grove,andquot; and under a tree in a meadow.13 Lindhorst appears in majestic form in andquot;his damask dressing gown which glittered like phosphorus.andquot;14 He also appears as a nice old man on the streets of Dresden and elsewhere15 with andquot;whiteandquot; hair, dressed in a andquot;gray gownandquot; and wearing andquot;his three-cocked military hat.andquot;16 He also protects Anselmus against the evil andquot;spiritsandquot; who seek his treasure on the equinox17 and treats Anselmus to andquot;show and tellandquot; sessions at a nearby cafandeacute;, providing instant andquot;fireandquot; by snapping his fingers and telling about his historical past.18 Moroni similarly appears in a majestic form in a andquot;robeandquot; that was andquot;exceedingly white and brilliant.andquot;19 He also appears along Palmyra roads as a nice andquot;old man going to Cumorahandquot; and elsewhere with andquot;white hair,andquot; dressed in andquot;gray apparel,andquot; wearing a andquot;military half cocked hat.andquot; Moroni protects Joseph against evil andquot;spiritsandquot; who seek his treasure on the equinox. Moroni plows a field at the Whitmer farm and is seen about their sheds. Leman Copley, an early church member, said Smith told him and Joseph Knight Sr. that he saw and conversed with andquot;Moroniandquot; as andquot;an old manandquot; traveling to andquot;Charzee.andquot; Joseph said Moroni claimed to have a monkey in a box and that for andquot;five coppersandquot; he could see it.20 Moroni meets Joseph and tells him about his past. The witnesses andquot;went into a groveandquot; to behold the angel and the gold plates. They are also shown other artifacts and watch as Moroni returns them to andquot;the cave.andquot; Later, the gold plates are returned to the andquot;caveandquot; by Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery.21
It is also significant that both the house and cave contain a number of high and large chambers that are filled with Egyptian artifacts, illuminated golden treasures, swords, and fine furnishings. Within these vast libraries are seeric devices, breastplates, gilded books, and tripods containing priceless artifacts from the ancient past.22 Both guardians defend their treasures at all costs. They appear as frightful old men, as a andquot;transparent, white serpent [covered] with blood,andquot; a andquot;toadandquot; (or something that looked andquot;like a toadandquot;), and a andquot;bleeding ghostandquot; [whose] andquot;clothes were bloody,andquot; all for the purpose of keeping the treasures from the unauthorized.23 There is really only one important variation in all these descriptions:andnbsp;Anselmus sees all this in dreams, whereas Joseph Smith said they took place in reality.
A Brief Synopsis of andquot;The Golden Potandquot;
andquot;The Golden Potandquot; fairy tale is about Anselmus, a young man who has a split personality. His real life is dull, ordinary, and without meaning. Life in his fantasy dreams is exciting, unordinary and full of import. Anselmus is a theology student, but he usually prefers his fantasy world to his studies. His friends, such as theology professor Paulmann, the professor's daughter Veronica, and the college registrar Heerbrand all regard him as essentially andquot;mad.andquot; When Anselmus is in fantasy, Paulmann becomes Archivarius Lindhorst, the last archivist of Atlantis. Hoffmann clearly tells us that Lindhorst does not live in the flesh but has andquot;existence in the world of spirits.andquot;24 Veronica becomes Serpentina, one of Lindhorst's three daughters, who appear as little green snakes. Herrbrand seemingly has no counterpart but may be a portrayal of Anselmus at times. A nice old woman named Liese is in the story; she becomes an old witch in the fantasy dreams.
An important key to this fairy tale is that whenever Lindhorst, Serpentina, or the old witch are mentioned, Anselmus is in his dream world. Sometimes his dreams include real people mixed with the fantasy figures. After Vigil Eight, Anselmus, who andquot;has long been mente Captus,andquot; increasingly withdraws until in Vigil Twelve he is completely removed andquot;to the mysterious [Atlantean] land of wonders.andquot;25 In other words, he commits suicide. After Vigil Eight, except for a few flashbacks, there is no connection between the fairy tale and Joseph Smith's account of obtaining gold plates.
The First Vision of the Eveningand#151;Receiving a Message
In early evening on Ascension Day, Anselmus is under an elder tree meditating about his shortcomings as one of God's future ministers. He passes into a dream experience and sees the three daughters of Lindhorst, each in the form of a green snake in the elder tree. One of the daughters, Serpentina, speaks to Anselmus, but he does not fully comprehend. Only after his fourth vision does the message become clear.26 Lindhorst is nearby in his study, across the river, listening and aware of what is transpiring but does not speak to Anselmus.27
The Second Vision of the Eveningand#151;Called to andquot;Translateandquot; Rare Documents
Upon awakening from his first fantasy dream, Anselmus is thought to be drunk or a bit crazy, especially in the eyes of his friends Paulmann, Veronica, and Heerbrand. They invite Anselmus to Paulmann's house to shake off his vision. Now late but still at the Paulmann house, Anselmus has a second dream experience. In this dream (and we know it's a fantasy because the fairy-figure Lindhorst is present), Heerbrand informs Anselmus that Lindhorst needs a secretary to copy the ancient records of his Atlantean civilization. Interested, Anselmus agrees to visit Lindhorst the following morning. Still in his dream, Anselmus does so. On the way he: (1) thinks about the generous salary and gift (a seeric pot) that he will receive; (2) encounters an evil witch, who tells him telepathically that he will fail in his assignment; (3) is frightened by the old witch at Lindhorst's doorstep; (4) and is abused by andquot;a white serpent,andquot; who is Lindhorst in one of his frightful forms. Paulmann, finding Anselmus andquot;lying quite senseless at the doorandquot; (in other words, still dreaming), returns him to his home.28 Thus, andquot;on returning to his senses, he [Anselmus] was lying on his own poor truckle-bed.andquot; Paulmann is there when he awakes and again thinks Anselmus is andquot;mad.andquot;
The Third Vision of the Eveningand#151;Hearing the History of Atlantis
Still in bed, Anselmus dreams he is at a cafandeacute; with Heerbrand. They listen to (fairy-figure) Lindhorst give a brief historical account of his life, which includes the founding of Atlantis by his ancestors. Anselmus agrees to copy Lindhorst's Atlantean manuscripts, promising to come andquot;tomorrowandquot; (his second try) and commence the work no matter what the obstacles.
The Morning Vision (4th)and#151;The Message Becomes Clear
Again under the elder tree, andquot;no sooner had he [Anselmus] seated himself on it than the whole vision which he had previously seen as in a heavenly trance again came floating before him. It was clearer to him now than ever.andquot; Anselmus believes this is confirmation that everything the andquot;glorious dreams have promised me of [in] another higher world shall be fulfilled.andquot;
Anselmus is so excited that he thereafter spends andquot;every eveningandquot; under the elder tree. One evening Lindhorst appears and chastises him, asking him why he has not come to do the scribal work as promised. Anselmus says that it was because of the frightful experiences on Lindhorst's doorstep. Lindhorst tells him, andquot;I have waited for several days in vain.andquot; Anselmus again promises to come andquot;tomorrow.andquot;
Waiting for the Fall Equinox
Vigil Five opens with Anselmus having for andquot;two days been copying manuscripts at Archivarius Lindhorst's.andquot; Lindhorst likes the work the young man is doing, but it is too soon to know if he will be suitable for the Atlantean history project. andquot;We will talk of it this time a year from now,andquot; it is decided. Meanwhile, a nice old woman named Liese induces Anselmus's fiancandeacute;e, Veronica, to venture out on a fall equinox adventure. The old woman will conjure Anselmus and assure a happy future for them, but only if Veronica is present. Loving Anselmus, and desperate andquot;to rescue him from the phantoms, which were mocking and befooling him,andquot; Veronica agrees.29 When the fall equinox arrives, we see Liese become an old witch in Veronica's fantasy dream. The witch's true motive is to kill Anselmus, her competition, and obtain the seeric pot for herself.30
Another Visitand#151;A Period of Probation
In another dream, Anselmus reaches Lindhorst's house and the door swings open on its own. Lindhorst appears and takes him through the following rooms: (1) andquot;the gardenandquot; room or andquot;greenhouse,andquot; with various birds, flowers, and trees; (2) several other decorated rooms all containing andquot;glittering wondrous furniture and other unknown thingsandquot;; and (3) a blue room containing andquot;palm-treesandquot; with glittering andquot;leavesandquot;and#151;each leaf andquot;a roll of parchment.andquot;31 In the middle of the blue room, resting on a tripod of Egyptian lions, is an Egyptian breastplate; resting on it is a seeric golden pot. Anselmus is most excited about the seeric device. Continuing, they arrive at a andquot;libraryandquot; where Anselmus will work. Lindhorst hands him an Arabic manuscript to copy and explains that andquot;while laboring here, you are under going a season of instruction.andquot; As Anselmus finishes each manuscript, Lindhorst hands him another, then another, and so forth. Anselmus is promised that if he is successful, he will work in the blue room. The young man gains confidence, encouraged by Serpentina. At day's end, Lindhorst is obviously pleased with his protandeacute;gandeacute;'s work and appears in a majestic form to praise and compensate him. Excited about his work, Anselmus no longer thinks about getting rich.
On the Equinoxand#151;Anselmus Passes His Test
The old woman and Veronica now andquot;undertake the adventure of the Equinox.andquot; They andquot;went at midnightandquot; and andquot;conjured certain hellish spiritsandquot; by drawing a magic circle and performing certain other rituals. When Anselmus is conjured up, the old woman reveals herself to be the evil witch and issues a command to her andquot;hellish spiritsandquot; to andquot;Bite him to death.andquot; Lindhorst arrives in the form of an eagle to save Anselmus and send the crone home. Using a andquot;bright polished metallic mirror,andquot; Veronica sees her fiancandeacute;e andquot;sitting in a stately chamberandquot; (the blue room rather than the usual library) with the strangest furniture and diligently writing at a desk encircled by andquot;large books with gilt leaves.andquot; Veronica wakes andquot;as from a deep dreamandquot; in which she has learned that Anselmus has passed his probationary test.
andquot;Translatingandquot; the Atlantean History
Anselmus was seen by his fiancandeacute;e on the equinox in the room with the golden pot, breastplate, and special records. But in Anselmus's dream, Lindhorst makes him wait a few more days before andquot;translatingandquot; the Atlantean records. As an apprenticeand#151;while on probationand#151;Anselmus was a scribe only. However, now that he has seen the higher purpose of his assignment, beyond the money, he will leave the common library and the work of copying of manuscripts and graduate to the blue room and a more difficult assignment. In the blue room, Lindhorst pulls a leaf from one of the many palm trees in the room, andquot;and Anselmus saw that the leaf was in truth a roll of parchment, which the Archivarius unfolded, and spread out before the Student on the table.andquot; The writing is a mixture of Arabic, Coptic, and some in an unknown tongue. Anselmus andquot;directed his eyes and thoughts more and more intensely on the superscription of the parchment roll; and before long he felt, as it were from his inmost soul, that the characters could denote nothing else than these words: Of the marriage of the Salamander with the green snake,andquot; a reference to Lindhorst's distant ancestors who founded Atlantis. Continuing beyond the superscription, Anselmus begins to write the story of Lindhorst andquot;and his history.andquot; He receives the translation in the form of inspirational whispers from Serpentina, an Atlantean, while Anselmus is in a state of dreamy musings. At the end of the first day, when Anselmus andquot;awoke as from a deep dream, the copy of the mysterious manuscript was fairly concluded; and he thought, on viewing the characters more narrowly, that the writing was nothing else but Serpentina's story of her father [Lindhorst] in Atlantis, the land of marvels.andquot; andquot;Day by dayandquot; Anselmus continues to write or andquot;translatingandquot; Lindhorst's history in this manner. In other words, he is not merely transferring foreign characters from one document to another but is receiving understanding, knowledge, and meaning.
Similar Quotes from Smith and andquot;The Golden Potandquot;
I use the 1827 Carlyle translation, the version available to the Smith family, for the following quotations. Modern translations vary in nuance and are less usefull for comparison with the Joseph Smith narrative. The quotes below follow the chronology of the E. T. A. Hoffmann story. Each numbered item contains a quote first from Hoffmann, then from the Smith family.
1. andquot;Through all his limbs there went a shock like electricityandquot; / andquot;produced a shock that affected the whole body,andquot; andquot;occasioned a shock or sensation, visible to the extremities of the body.andquot;32
2. The script was andquot;partly Arabic, strange characters, which do not belonging to any known tongueandquot; / andquot;some unknown tongue; with few exceptions, the characters were Arabic.andquot;33
3. Anselmus is dressed andquot;at variance with all fashionandquot; / Joseph Smith wore andquot;old fashionedandquot; clothing that was dark and mostly andquot;black.andquot;34
4. Anselmus is abused by a andquot;transparent, white serpent.[covered with] bloodandquot; / andquot;something like a toad,andquot; andquot;looked some like a toad,andquot; a andquot;bleeding ghostandquot; whose andquot;clothes were bloody.andquot;35
5. andquot;A briefandquot; overview of the Atlanteans and the source from which they andquot;had sprungandquot; / andquot;a brief sketchandquot; of the Nephites and the source from which andquot;they sprang.andquot;36
6. Sitting in andquot;deep thoughtandquot; under an andquot;elder treeandquot; by a andquot;green kindly sward,andquot; Anselmus looked andquot;illandquot; / in andquot;deep studyandquot; under an andquot;apple treeandquot; by a andquot;green sward,andquot; Joseph looked andquot;sickandquot;.37
7. andquot;Why did you not come to me and set about your workandquot; / andquot;I had not been engaged enough in the work.andquot;38
8. They andquot;will talk of it a year from nowandquot; / andquot;come again in one year.andquot;39
9. They andquot;act strictly by the Archivarius' directionsandquot; / andquot;attending strictly to the [Moroni's] instruction.andquot;40
10. andquot;The door openedandquot; / andquot;a door [andquot;the hillandquot;] opened.andquot; 41
11. andquot;The gardenandquot; room contains andquot;high groves and trees,andquot; the andquot;blue chamberandquot; is andquot;a large apartment,andquot; and the andquot;workroomandquot; library is a particularly andquot;high roomandquot; / andquot;large and spacious chambers,andquot; andquot;a room about 16 ft. square,andquot; andquot;a large and spacious room,andquot; andquot;chambers.andquot;42
12. Rooms without andquot;windowsandquot; where a andquot;dazzling light shone[; he] could not discover where it came fromandquot; / andquot;brilliantly lighted, but did not notice the source.andquot;43
13. A seeric device of andquot;the fairest metal [and] diamond; in its glitter shall our kingdom of wondersandquot; be seen / andquot;two large bright diamonds set in [metal],andquot; andquot;diamonds set in silver.andquot;44
14. One could andquot;see the marvels of the Golden Potandquot; / andquot;see anything; they are Marvelous.andquot;45
15. The library was andquot;lined on all sides with bookshelves, and [there] stood a large writing tableandquot; / andquot;the room had shelves around it,andquot; andquot;a large table that stood in the room.andquot;46
16. andquot;You are undergoing a season of instructionandquot; / andquot;received instruction and intelligence.andquot;47
17. andquot;Kneeling,andquot; Veronica heard andquot;hateful voices [that] bellowed and bleated, yelled and hummedandquot; / Emma andquot;kneeledandquot; and heard andquot;devils began to screech and to scream, and made all sorts of hideous yells.andquot;48
18. Gone from andquot;midnightandquot; until andquot;daylightandquot; / from andquot;twelve o'clockandquot; until andquot;breakfast.andquot;49
19. Attacked by andquot;hellish spiritsandquot; / andquot;Lucifer[s] spirits,andquot; andquot;host of devils.andquot;50
20. andquot;[T]he Archivarius would hand him anotherandquot; document when andquot;Anselmus had finished the last letterandquot; / andquot;The angel brought each plate [to Joseph] and took it way as he finished it.andquot;51
21. andquot;Parchment leavesandquot; / andquot;piece of parchment.andquot;52
22. The source document is andquot;scarcely needed / only andquot;when he was inexperienced.andquot;53
23. Lindhorst appeared in a andquot;gown which glittered like phosphorus,andquot; / Moroni's andquot;robe [was] exceedingly white and brilliant,andquot; andquot;garments were white above all whiteness.andquot;54
24. Lindhort is andquot;the Prince of the Spiritsandquot; / Moroni is andquot;the prince of spirits.andquot;55
25. Lindhorst's hair is andquot;white,andquot; he wears a andquot;gray gownandquot; and andquot;three-cocked military hatandquot; / Moroni's hair is andquot;white,andquot; he dresses in andquot;gray apparelandquot; and wears a andquot;military half cocked hat.andquot;56
For a discussion of other motifs in Smith's story of the golden plates and E. T. A. Hoffmann's story of the golden pot, see An Insider's View, 147-170.
1. Grant H. Palmer, An Insider's View of Mormon Origins (Salt Lake City: Signature Books, 2002), 173.
2. Ibid, 144n20.
3. Ibid, 184. This is why Martin Harris, Porter Rockwell, and another were digging for treasure at Cumorah after the gold plates were said to have been found there in Sept. 1827. See, Ibid, 178.
4. Ibid, 178, 183-85.
5. Ibid, 186-195.
6. Dan Vogel, ed., Early Mormon Documents 5 vols. (Salt Lake City: Signature Books, 1986-2002), 1:521.
7. An Insider's View, 189; Lucy Mack Smith, History of Joseph Smith by His Mother (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1958), 107, hereafter Lucy Smith, History of Joseph Smith.
8. An Insider's View, 158n35.
9. Ibid., 147-170.
10. Ibid, 153, 157.
11. Ibid, 43.
12. E. F. Bleiler, ed., The Best Tales of Hoffmann by E. T. A. Hoffmann (New York: Dover Publications, 1967), 18-19, 31, 42, 68, hereafter Hoffmann. Bleiler included a copy of the 1827 edition of Thomas Carlyle's translation of andquot;The Golden Potandquot; in this collection. Later translations have been different in literary style.
13. Lucy Smith, History of Joseph Smith 149-50; An Insider's View, 154.
14. Hoffmann, 52. Also 35, 43, 61-62.
15. Ibid, 48-49, 16.
16. Ibid, 16, 35.
17. Ibid, 40.
18. Ibid, 14-15, 48-49, 52.
19. andquot;Joseph Smith-History,andquot; The Pearl of Great Price, 1:31; Lucy Smith, in An Insiders View, 256.
20. An Insider's View, 152n28, 164-65, 179.
21. Ibid, 192-94, and n48, 197.
22. Ibid, 157-163.
23. Ibid, 152n28.
24. Hoffmann, 167.
25. Ibid, 49, 61, 65.
26. Ibid, 19.
27. Ibid, 5, 19-20, 35.
28. Ibid, 15.
29. Ibid, 49.
30. Ibid, 48.
31. Ibid, 43.
32. An Insider's View, 148.
33. Ibid, 148, 167.
34. Ibid, 171n59.
35. Ibid, 151 and note 28.
36. Ibid, 152-53.
37. Ibid, 154.
38. Ibid, 156.
39. Ibid, 156.
40. Hoffmann, 30; Lucy Smith, History of Joseph Smith, 80.
41. An Insider's View, 157-58.
42. Ibid, 158.
43. Ibid, 159.
44. Ibid, 160; Hoffmann, 47.
45. Ibid, 160; Hoffmann, 35.
46. An Insider's View, 161.
47. Ibid, 162.
48. Ibid, 164.
49. Ibid, 165.
50. Ibid, 164.
51. Ibid, 162
52. Ibid, 167, 170.
53. Ibid, 170.
54. Hoffmann, 52; andquot;Joseph Smith-History,andquot; The Pearl of Great Price, 1:31; An Insider's View, /256.
55. An Insider's View, 154; Hoffmann, 43.
56. Hoffmann, 16, 35; An Insider's View, 152n28: David Whitmer (hair), Leman Copley (gray apparel), Abner Cole (hat).
| I just read a few of the apologist's essays on Grant Palmer's book, and the more I read, the more I was convinced that Palmer was right. Check out this excerpt from the gi-normous response by James Allen:
"I will not attempt here to answer all the problems raised by Palmer; a few examples will illustrate the kind of faulty
speculation, incomplete evidence, and misleading "parallels" that plague his book. My intent is simply to summarize some of his
assertions, show that nearly all of them have been dealt with in detail by well-qualified LDS scholars, and point the interested
reader to some of their readily available writings. These scholars all have advanced degrees, usually doctoral degrees, with a
wide variety of specialties, among them early American history, ancient civilizations, ancient languages, linguistics,
anthropology, law, and philosophy. It is clear in their writings, moreover (though they avoid belaboring the point), that
they are also believers.2 I recognize that simply piling up names of authorities is not sufficient, but I would remind readers
that in their search for truth they must read not only the naysayers but also the proven experts."
What kind of scholarly response is that?! A heartfelt appeal to authority followed by an excuse, then a scathing insult directed
at ALL non-TBMs to top it off. He continues his 40-page non-sequitur with arguments directed at just a few of Palmer's ideas; he
is careful to write with a tone of indignation, or course. He then concludes with an attack on Palmer's faith, and states that he
is trying "to rationalize his own lack of faith."
Maybe this is all old news to y'all, but I was frankly surprised that Farms would be a source of such poor literature.
On a related note (after my rant), Allen points out that "[o]ne of the things Palmer asserts is that the Book of Mormon
contains doctrines that are different from doctrines Joseph came up with later. One of these concerns the Godhead, and Palmer
cites several passages that seem to make no distinction between the Father and the Son (as opposed to Joseph Smith's later
teaching that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are three distinct beings; see Mosiah 15:1–4, for example). What Palmer
fails to point out, however, is that there are numerous other passages that clearly distinguish between the persons of the Father
and the Son. We read in 3 Nephi, for example...."
This seems reasonable to me, what was Palmer getting at? Did I miss something?
By arguing that "other passages clearly distinguish" between the father and the son, the hapless apologist is simply drawing
attention to the fact that changes were made to the Book of Mormon to reflect the evolving doctrinal beliefs of Joe Smith.
So much for being the "most correct books on earth". It is in fact a book that has undergone many edits, which belies any claim
that the original was the product of any so-called "gift and power of god".
For more information on the changes to the
Book of Mormon, see this article:
Read in the light of the original passages of the Book of
Mormon, even the apologist-cited 3 Nephi reference regarding the son and the father does not clearly indicate that they are
ultimately separate deities.
3 Nephi 1:14: 1. Behold, I come unto my own, to fulfil all
things which I have made known unto the children of men from the foundation of the world, and to do the will, both of the Father
and of the Son–of the Father because of me, and of the Son because of my flesh. And behold, the time is at hand, and this night
shall the sign be given.
Now look at Mosia 15:1-4: AND now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should
understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people.
2 And because he
dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father
and the Son–
3 The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus
becoming the Father and Son–
4 And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.
When compared against the modalist doctrine enunciated in Mosiah, it actually becomes fairly clear that 3 Nephi is merely
restating the modalist theology, namely, the idea that there is one supernatural, supreme being, who expresses himself in
different modes, namely in the mode of father and in the mode of son (being called "son" only because the SAME BEING has taken on
the form of flesh, a form which he also "fathered").
Clearly, there is a problem with the Book of Mormon in terms of
it's description of the attributes of god versus the later developments of Mormon doctrine regarding the separate personages and
physical bodies of the father and the son. Palmer has identified and commented upon the problem. The apologist you have cited
is merely spewing out a smoke screen in the hopes that nobody will wait for the smoke to clear and examine for themselves whether
the Book of Mormon (particularly the original, unedited version) contains problematic descriptions of the attributes of god.
The heart of the argument of this apologist/clown is the idea that TBMs do not need to think about this stuff because
super-duper LDS "experts" and "scholars" have soundly refuted all criticisms. This is of course nonsense.
| A Message From Grant Palmer About The Availability Of His New Book "The Incomparable Jesus" |
Monday, Oct 3, 2005, at 07:10 AM
Original Author(s): Polygamy Porter
Topic: GRANT PALMER -Link To MC Article-
| ↑ |
| Grant just sent me this message and asked that I "make it known to those I think would be interested."
Grant has been an assett in my life as an exiting mormon and I am always willing to give something back. Here is his email to me:
You have been a great supporter of An Insider's View. The companion book of where I would like to see the LDS Church go, The Incomparable Jesus, is finally available here in SLC, and should be available from Amazon.com in about a week.
Benchmark Books offers a toll free # at: 1-800-486-3112, for $14:95.
I would appreciate if you would make this information known to those you think would be interested.
Thank you, Grant
| NOTES ON THE GOLDEN POT
By Grant H. Palmer
I have received a number of inquiries from people seeking additional information and clarification on my "Moroni and the Golden Pot" chapter, found in, An Insider's View of Mormon Origins. I both hoped for and expected such a discussion. I welcome and thank people for their comments. I have never believed that "The Golden Pot" was the only influence upon Joseph Smith's angel golden-plates story. In my book I have said: "Regardless of where the motifs in the New York narrative came from, most of them, including the basic storyline, were already present in some form in the
environment."1 "The Golden Pot," other treasure motifs, and his own personal experience, all influenced Joseph Smith's narrative.
The Smith's "Cumorah Cave" and "The Golden Pot"
Fifty-one of Palmyra's leading citizens said the Smith family was "famous for visionary projects."2 One of these projects centered on a nearby glacial drumlin, later called Cumorah. Orsamus Turner said it was "[l]egends of hidden treasure," and Martin Harris said it was "money supposed to have been hidden by the ancients" that drew the family to the
hill.3 This is undoubtedly why Martin Harris, subsequent to meeting Joseph Smith, was also digging for treasure at Cumorah with Porter Rockwell and probably Joseph himself after the golden plates were said to be found in September, 1827.4 From 1820-1827, Joseph Smith and his father were digging at and having experiences with Cumorah's guardian, according to long time Palmyra residents Turner, Harris, Pomeroy Tucker, Willard Chase, and Orlando Saunders--all providing detailed accounts. Before, during, and after the golden plate's saga, the Smith's were engaged in seeking its treasures.5 During this eight year period, there is solid evidence that Joseph and his father claimed to see into the caves of the surrounding hills. The family freely shared their discoveries with others.6 Katherine, Joseph's sister, said that Joseph "went frequently to the hill and upon returning would tell us, 'I have seen the records.'"7 Lucy Smith, Henry and Martin Harris each said that Joseph informed them that it was by means of a stone that he viewed the plates in the hill.8 Cumorah's cave became increasingly important to the family. Joseph Smith informed Orson Pratt: "[T]he grand repository of all the numerous records of the ancient nations of the western continent was located in. the hill [Cumorah], and its contents under the charge of holy
angels."9 To the Smith's, Moroni was the hills primary guardian.10
The magical worldview of the Smith family and "The Golden Pot"
is striking. Archivarius Lindhorst is the principle guardian of the treasures at his "ancient residence," just as Moroni is the primary guardian of Cumorah's treasures. Anselmus has a working relationship with Lindhorst that centers around his house, and Joseph Smith has a working relationship with Moroni and his cave headquarters. Both can conveniently walk to their nearby house and cave in a short time. Upon their approach, the house and cave can simply open. Anselmus is met by Archivarius [means archivist] Lindhorst; Smith by Moroni. Both of these beings are the last archivists of their protracted civilizations.11 They are in charge of vast treasures and records, including numerous "rolls of parchment"12/"plates" from the destroyed civilizations of Atlantis, the Jaredites and Nephites.
Anselmus and Joseph meet with their guardians both inside and outside of their house and cave. Anselmus meets with Lindhorst "in the garden," in "high groves with trees," in the "azure [room, where]. the grove opens where I behold.," and under trees in meadows.13 Lucy Smith said, "the angel would meet him [Joseph] in the garden," in "a grove," and under a tree in a meadow.14 Lindhorst appears in majestic form in "his damask dressing gown which glittered like phosphorus."15 He also appears as a nice old man on the streets of Dresden and elsewhere16 with "white locks," dressed in "gray gown," and wearing "his three-cocked military hat."17 He also protects Anselmus from evil "spirits" on the Equinox.18 He does 'show and tell'
appearances, telling his historical past at a nearby café, and provides instant "fire" for others on several occasions by "snapping his fingers."19 Moroni too appears in a majestic form, in a "robe. exceedingly white and brilliant," "garments were white above all whiteness."20 He also appears along Palmyra roads as a nice "old man. going to Cumorah" and elsewhere, with "white hair," dressed in "gray apparel," wearing an "army knapsack" and a "military half cocked hat." Moroni too protects Joseph from evil "spirits"
on the Equinox. Moroni plows a field at the Whitmer farm and is seen about their sheds. Joseph told early church members Joseph Knight Sr., and Leman Copley, that he saw and conversed with "Moroni" as "an old man traveling to "Charzee." Joseph said Moroni claimed to have a monkey in a box, and for "five coppers" he could see it.21 Moroni also does 'show and tell'
appearances in groves. Both the three and eight witnesses "went into a grove," into "a little grove" and beheld things. They "saw" artifacts that were shown by Moroni to them from the cave and then watched as "they were taken away by the angel to a cave." Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery also said they returned the gold plates back to the "cave."22
Both the house and cave contain a number of vast chambers with fine furnishings. They see seeric devices, breastplates, gilded books in unknown tongues, and tripods containing priceless Egyptian artifacts from the ancient past in vast libraries.23 Both guardians defend their treasures at all costs. They will appear as frightful old men, as a "salamander" a "transparent, white serpent. [covered with] blood"/"something like a toad,"
"looked some like a toad," "a bleeding ghost," whose's "clothes were bloddy," all for the purpose to keep these treasures from the
unauthorized.24 There is really only one important variation in all these descriptions, Anselmus sees all these things in dreams and Joseph Smith said they took place in reality.
A brief synopsis of "The Golden Pot," Vigils 1-8
"The Golden Pot" fairy tale is about Anselmus, who has a split personality. His real life is dull, ordinary, and without meaning. But life in his fantasy-dreams is exciting, unordinary and full of import. Anselmus, a theology student, usually prefers to be in his fantasy world. His friends, such as theology professor Paulmann, his daughter Veronica, and Heerbrand, the registrar at the theological college, all regard him as essentially "mad" throughout the story. Paulmann has given Anselmus "hopes of copy
work,"25 but when Anselmus is in fantasy, Paulmann becomes Archivarius Lindhorst, the archivist of Atlantis who calls him to important work.
Hoffmann clearly tells us that Lindhorst does not live in the flesh but only has "existence in the world of spirits."26 Veronica becomes Serpentina, one of Lindhorst's three daughters, who usually appear as little green snakes.
Heerbrand, seemingly has no counterpart, but perhaps is Anselmus at times. A nice old woman named Liese in the story becomes an evil old witch when in his fantasy-dreams.
An important key to the fairy tale is that whenever Lindhorst, Serpentina, or the old witch is mentioned, Anselmus is in his fantasy-dream world. Sometimes his dreams include real people mixed with the fantasy figures. After Vigil 8, Anselmus, who "has long been mente Captus,"
increasingly withdraws, until in Vigil 12, he is completely removed "to the mysterious [Atlantean] land of wonders."27 In other words, he commits suicide. After Vigil 8, except for a few flashbacks, there is no connection of "The Golden Pot" with Joseph Smith's angel gold-plates story.
Vigil One: The First Vision of the Evening--receiving a message
In early evening on Ascension Day, Anselmus is under an elder tree meditating about his shortcomings as one of God's future ministers. He passes into a dream-experience and sees the three daughters of Lindhorst, each in the form of a green snake in the elder tree. One of the daughter's, Serpentina, speaks to him, but Anselmus does not fully comprehend. However, after his fourth vision the message is clear.28 Lindhorst is also nearby in his study across the river listening and aware of what is transpiring, but he does not speak to Anselmus.29
Vigil Two: The Second Vision of the Evening--called to "translate" documents
Upon awakening from his first fantasy-dream, Anselmus is thought to be drunk or a bit crazy by others, especially by his friends, Paulmann, Veronica and Herrbrand. They invite Anselmus to Paulmann's house to shake off his vision. Now late, but still at the Paulmann house, Anselmus has his second dream-experience on Ascension evening. In this dream (and we know it's a fantasy-dream because the fairy-figure Lindhorst is in it), Heerbrand informs him that Lindhorst needs a secretary to copy the ancient records of his Atlantean civilization, but warns Anselmus against making mistakes.
Lindhorst, he is told, "is a hot tempered man." Interested, Anselmus agrees to visit Lindhorst the following morning. Still in his dream, Anselmus does so. On the way he: (1) thinks about the generous salary and gift that he will receive (a seeric pot), more than the work, which was apparently a mistake; (2) sees the evil witch staring at him from Lindhorst's doorknocker, who tells him in his thoughts that he will fail in his assignment; (3) then he is further abused at the door by "a gigantic transparent white serpent," which is Lindhorst in his frightful salamander form. (Later in the story, Anselmus again makes a mistake and is again abused by "gigantic snakes which. wound their scaly bodies round Anselmus.
[and by] the frightful voice of the crowned Salamander, who appeared above the snakes like a glittering beam in the midst of the flame"30). Paulmann, finding Anselmus "lying quite senseless at the door," i.e. still in his dream, returns Anselmus to his home in a chair.31 Thus, "[o]n returning to his senses, he [Anselmus] was lying on his own poor truckle-bed." Paulmann is there when he awakes and again thinks Anselmus "mad."
Vigil three: The Third Vision of the Evening--hearing the history of Atlantis
Still in bed, Anselmus dreams he is at a café with Heerbrand
where they listen to (fairy-figure) Lindhorst give a brief historical
account of his life, which includes the founding of Atlantis by his
ancestors. Heerbrand then introduces Anselmus to Lindhorst and he agrees to
copy his Atlantean manuscripts. Anselmus says he will come "tomorrow," (his
second try) and commence the work no matter what obstacles he faces.
Vigil four: The Morning Vision (4th)--the message becomes clear
Again under the elder tree, "no sooner had he seated himself on
it than the whole vision which he had previously seen as in a heavenly
trance. again came floating before him. it was clearer to him now than ever.
[excited, Anselmus continues] all that glorious dreams have promised me of
another higher world shall be fulfilled."
Anselmus is so excited that thereafter "every evening" he was
under the elder tree. One evening while under his tree, Lindhorst appears
and chastises him, asking Anselmus why he has not come as promised in Vigil
three to start the work. Anselmus informs Lindhorst that it was because of
the experiences on his doorstep. Lindhorst tells him, "I have waited for
several days in vain" for you to come. Anselmus again promises to come,
Vigil five: Waiting for the fall Equinox
Vigil five open with Anselmus having for "two days been copying
manuscripts at Archivarius Lindhorst's." Lindhorst likes the work Anselmus
has been doing, but it is too soon to tell if he is suitable for a higher
responsibility. It is decided, "We will talk of it this time a year from
Meanwhile a nice old woman named Liese induces Anselmus'
fiancée, Veronica, to come with her on a fall equinox adventure. The old
woman will conjure Anselmus and assure a happy future for them, but only if
Veronica is present. Loving Anselmus, and desperate "to rescue him from the
phantoms, which were mocking and befooling him," Veronica agrees.32 When the
fall equinox does arrive, we see Liese become an old witch in Veronica's
fantasy dream. The witch's true motive is to kill Anselmus her competition
on the equinox and eventually obtain the seeric pot for herself.33
Vigil 6: Another Visit--a period of probation
In this dream, Anselmus, upon reaching Lindhorst's house, the
door simply swings open and he is soon met by Lindhorst and taken through
the following rooms: (1) "the garden" or "greenhouse" room, with various
birds, flowers and trees; (2) several other decorated rooms all containing
"glittering wondrous furniture and other unknown things"; (3) a blue room,
containing "palm-trees" with glittering "leaves." Each leaf is "a roll of
parchment."34 Also, in the middle of the chamber resting on a tripod of
Egyptian lions, is an Egyptian breastplate, and resting on it is a seeric
golden pot. Anselmus is most excited about the seeric device. (4)
Continuing, they arrive at a "library" room where Anselmus will work.
Lindhorst hands him an Arabic manuscript to copy and explains: "While
laboring here, you are under going a season of instruction." As he finishes
each manuscript, Lindhorst then hands him another, and then another and so
forth. He is promised that if successful, he will work in the "blue" room
with the special Atlantean records. With Serpentina's encouragement,
Anselmus gains confidence. At day's end, Lindhorst, obviously pleased with
his work, appears in majestic form and praises and pays him. Excited about
his work, Anselmus no longer thinks about getting rich.
Vigil 7: On the Equinox--Anselmus passes his test
The old woman and Veronica now "undertake the adventure of the
Equinox." They "went at midnight" and "conjured certain hellish spirits" by
drawing a magic circle and performing certain other rituals. When Anselmus
is conjured up, the old woman becomes the evil witch and tells her "hellish
spirits" to "Bite him to death." Lindhorst arrives as an eagle, saves
Anselmus, and sends the crone home. Using a "bright polished metallic
mirror" she sees Anselmus "sitting in a stately chamber (not the usual
library), with the strangest furniture, and diligently writing at a desk
encircled by "large books with gilt leaves." Veronica, now "awoke as from a
deep dream." In this vision, Veronica saw Anselmus in the promised "blue"
room "diligently writing." He has passed his probationary test.
Vigil 8: Translating the Atlantean history
On the Equinox, Anselmus was seen writing in the blue room where
the golden pot, breastplate, and special records reside. But in this dream,
Lindhorst makes him wait a few more days before "translating" the Atlantean
records. As an apprentice, or while on probation, Anselmus has been merely
copying manuscripts. However, now he has satisfied Lindhorst, and by further
seeing the higher purpose of the work beyond the money, he graduates to the
"blue" room where a more difficult assignment awaits him. In this room,
Lindhorst pulls a leaf from one of the many palm trees in the room, "and
Anselmus saw that the leaf was in truth a roll of parchment, which the
Archivarius unfolded, and spread out before the Student on the table." The
characters were a mixture of Arabic, Coptic and some in an unknown tongue.
Anselmus "directed his eyes and thoughts more and more intensely on the
superscription of the parchment roll; and before long he felt, as it were
from his inmost soul, that the characters could denote nothing else than
these words: Of the marriage of the Salamander with the green snake"
[Lindhorst's distant ancestors, who founded Atlantis]. Continuing, beyond
the superscription, Anselmus then begins to write the story of Lindhorst
"and his history." This part of his "translation" can be read on pages 45-49
in "The Golden Pot." He receives this information by inspirational whispers
from Serpentina, an Atlantean, while he is in dreamy musings. At the end of
the first work day, when Anselmus "awoke as from a deep dream. the copy of
the mysterious manuscript was fairly concluded; and he thought, on viewing
the characters more narrowly, that the writing was nothing else but
Serpentina's story of her father [Lindhorst]. in Atlantis, the land of
marvels." "Day by day" Anselmus continues writing or "translating" Lindhorst's
history in this manner. In other words, Anselmus in this assignment is not
merely transferring the foreign characters from one document to another, but
is receiving understanding, knowledge and meaning. In this sense Anselmus is
translating the record.
Similar quotes used by the Smith's and "The Golden Pot"
I use the 1827 Carlyle translation for the following quotations.
This is the translation that was available to the Smith family. Modern
translations are useless because they use different wording. The quotes
below follow the chronology of the Hoffmann story, quoting him first,
followed by quotes from the Smith family.
1. During the first vision on Ascension Day: "Through all his limbs there
went a shock like electricity"/"produced a shock that affected the whole
body," "occasioned a shock or sensation, visible to the extremities of the
2. During the second vision on Ascension Day, the character markings on the
special records are described as "partly Arabic. strange characters, which
do not belonging to any known tongue"/"some unknown tongue. the strange
characters. with few exceptions, the characters were Arabic."36
3. Also during the second vision, when leaving for the house/hill, they are
dressed "at variance with all fashion"/"old fashioned" clothing that was
dark and mostly "black"/"black."37
4. Also during the second vision, upon arriving at the house/hill they are
abused by: "a salamander," a "transparent, white serpent. [covered with]
blood"/"something like a toad," "looked some like a toad," a "bleeding
ghost," "clothes were bloddy."38
5. During the third vision on Ascension Day, they receive "a brief"/"a brief
sketch," of the Atlanteans/Nephites and the source from which they "had
6. During the fourth or morning vision, they are under an "elder tree"/"apple
tree" by a "green kindly sward"/"green sward." They are described as being
in "deep thought"/"deep study" and look "ill"/"sick."40
7. Lindhorst and Moroni say: "Why did you not come to me and set about your
work"/"I had not been engaged enough in the work."41
8. On whether Anselmus/Smith will ever receive the Atlantean/Nephite
history: "will talk of it a year from now"/"come again in one year."42
9. On visiting their house/hill for a second visit, they "act strictly by
the Archivarius' directions"/"attending strictly to the [angel's]
10. On arriving at the house/hill the door simply swings open: "The door
opened"/"a door opened," "the hill opened." Both are met by
11. On the height and vastness of the chambers they see in their house/hill:
"The garden" room contains "high groves and trees"; the "blue chamber" is "a
large apartment"; and the "workroom" library is "a high room"/"large and
spacious chambers," "a room about 16 ft. square," "a large and spacious
room," and "chambers."45
12. The rooms in their house/hill are without "windows," yet, a "dazzling
light shone. could not discover where it came from"/ "brilliantly lighted,
but did not notice the source."46
13. The seeric device is seen and described as being of "the fairest metal.
[and] the diamond; in its glitter shall our kingdom of wonders" be seen/"two
large bright diamonds set in [metal]," "diamonds set in. silver."47
14. In the seeric device one can, "see the marvels of the Golden Pot"/"see
anything; they are Marvelous."48
15. On viewing and describing the main library: It was, "lined on all sides
with bookshelves, and [there]. stood a large writing table"/"the room had
shelves around it," "a large table that stood in the room."49
16. When placed on probation, they are told, "you are undergoing a season of
instruction"/"received instruction and intelligence."50
17. On the procedure of providing the documents during probation: "[T]he
Archivarius would hand him another," when "Anselmus had finished the last
letter"/"The angel brought each plate [to Joseph]. and took it way as he
18. On the fall equinox adventure, Veronica/Emma after "kneeling"/"kneeled,"
hear "hateful voices [that] bellowed and bleated, yelled and hummed"/"devils
began to screech and to scream, and made all sorts of hideous yells."52
19. On the equinox adventure, Veronica/Emma are gone from "midnight"/"twelve
o'clock" and return at "daylight"/"breakfast."53
20. On the equinox, they are attacked by the witch's "hellish spirits"/"Lucifer[s].
spirits," "legions of devils," but their guardian's intervene.54
21. When translating their special records they turn out to be small
"parchment leaves"/"piece of parchment."55
22. After translating a while, the "parchments" are "scarcely needed"/only
"when he was inexperienced."56
23. When appearing in majestic form, Lindhorst and Moroni appear in a "gown
which glittered like phosphorus,"/"robe. exceedingly white and brilliant,"
"garments were white above all whiteness."57
24. Lindhort and Moroni are sometimes referred to as "the Prince of the
Spirits"/"the prince of spirits."58
25. In old man form Lindhorst and Moroni's hair is "white"/"white," dressed
in "gray gown"/"gray apparel," wearing a "three-cocked military hat"/"military
half cocked hat."59
Similar concepts used by the Smith's and "The Golden Pot"
(Most of these motifs are in An Insider's View, 147-170)
1. Anselmus and Joseph are both seeking to be God's minister.
2. Both are meditating upon their shortcomings when they have a vision.
3. Both have their vision on a special day (Ascension Day and the Equinox).
4. Both encounter great brightness like the sun before seeing the messenger.
5. Both receive a shock before seeing the messenger.
6. Both see several beings in the vision.
7. Both don't fully comprehend the message during the first vision, but do
8. Both have three visions in one evening, also a morning vision.
9. Both are thought to be crazy by those among their religious friends.
10. Both are called to "translate" documents in their visions.
11. Both are promised a seeric device in the visions.
12. Both receive a brief sketch of their ancient inhabitants in their
13. Both learn their messengers are direct descendants of their people's
14. Both learn the messengers are the archivists of their civilizations.
15. Both messengers are called, "Prince of the Spirits."
16. Both are under a tree by a green meadow during their fourth or morning
17. Both messages are repeated, expanded and clarified in these visions.
18. Both are told to come the next day and commence their work.
19. Both walk to the nearby appointed place.
20. Both wear black clothing when visiting their messengers the first time.
21. Both think about the financial rewards on the way to visit their
22. Both encounter an evil power and are told they will fail in their
23. Both are harmed by their messengers upon arriving at their appointed
24. Both are chastised for not being serious enough about their special
25. Both are to wait one year to see if they will be allowed to receive
their special records.
26. Both follow strict instruction when visiting the appointed place.
27. Both say when visiting the appointed place that the door simply swings
28. Both are met by their messengers after entering the appointed place.
29. Both are taken on a tour of the vast chambers.
30. Both see many treasures and fine furniture.
31. Both see by a dazzling light but its source is unknown. There are no
32. Both see a tripod and Egyptian artifacts.
33. Both are enthralled when seeing their seeric device.
34. Both describe the general library similarly.
35. Both of their special records, breastplates, and seeric devices
are not kept in the library.
36. Both are placed on probation by their messengers for a season.
37. Both messengers bring them one manuscript at a time during the probation
38. Both get more excited about the work than getting rich.
39. Both of their special women undertake an adventure on the fall equinox.
40. Both women pray against the howling spirits on the equinox.
41. Both women are out from midnight to dawn on the equinox.
42. Both men are injured by evil spirits on the equinox, but are rescued by
43. Both pass their final test and get access to their records on the fall
44. Both begin to translate their records a few days later.
45. Both special records are written in characters of an unknown language.
46. Both translate their records by inspiration.
47. Both translate from pieces of parchment.
48. Both after a while don't need the parchments while translating.
49. Both do their work rapidly and correctly.
50. Both experience the majestic, nice old man, and frightful forms of their
1. Grant H. Palmer, An Insider's View of Mormon Origins (Salt
Lake City: Signature Books, 2002), 173; see also 171.
2. Ibid, 144n20.
3. Ibid, 184-85.
4. Ibid, 178.
5. Ibid, 183-85, 194-95n56.
6. Ibid, 186-195.
7. Dan Vogel, ed., Early Mormon Documents 5 vols. (Salt Lake
City: Signature Books, 1986-2002), 1:521.
8. An Insider's View, 189; Lucy Mack Smith, History of Joseph
Smith by His Mother, Lucy Mack Smith (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1958), 107,
hereafter, Lucy Smith, History of Joseph Smith.
9. An Insider's View, 158n35.
10. Ibid., 147-170.
11. Ibid, 153, 157. Lindhorst is both the current or last
archivist of his protracted Atlantean civilization and a direct descendant
from the founding "queen. [for she was] my
great-great-great-great-grandmother." This genealogy covers a lengthy period
of time. Lindhorst said: "[Y]ou know, gentlemen, my father died a short
while ago; it is but three hundred and eighty-five years ago at the most,
and I am still in mourning for it" (E. F. Bleiler, ed., The Best Tales of
Hoffmann by E. T. A. Hoffmann (New York: Dover Publications, 1967), 14-15,
12. An Insider's View, 43.
13. Hoffmann, 18-19, 31, 42, 68.
14. Lucy Smith, History of Joseph Smith, 149-50; An Insider's
View, 154, 192n48.
15. Hoffmann, 52. Also 35, 43, 61-62.
16. Ibid, 48-49, 16.
17. Ibid, 16, 35.
18. Ibid, 40.
19. Ibid, 14-15, 48-49, 52.
20. "Joseph Smith-History," The Pearl of Great Price, 1:31; Lucy
Smith, in An Insiders View, 256.
21. An Insider's View, 152n28, 164-65, 179 and note 15.
22. Ibid, 192-94, and n48, 197.
23. Ibid, 157-163.
24. Ibid, 152n28; Hoffmann, 55.
25. Hoffmann, 3.
26. Ibid, 67.
27. Ibid, 49, 61, 65.
28. Ibid, 19.
29. Ibid, 5, 19-20, 35.
30. Ibid, 55.
31. Ibid, 15.
32. Ibid, 49.
33. Ibid, 48.
34. Ibid, 43.
35. An Insider's View, 148.
36. Ibid, 148, 167.
37. Ibid, 171n59.
38. Ibid, 151 and note 28.
39. Ibid, 152-53.
40. Ibid, 154.
41. Ibid, 156.
42. Ibid, 156.
43. Hoffmann, 30; Lucy Smith, History of Joseph Smith, 80.
44. An Insider's View, 157-58.
45. Ibid, 158.
46. Ibid, 159.
47. Ibid, 160; Hoffmann, 47.
48. An Insider's View, 160; Hoffmann, 35.
49. Ibid, 161.
50. Ibid, 162.
51. Ibid, 162.
52. Ibid, 164.
53. Ibid, 165.
54. Ibid, 164-65.
55. Ibid, 167, 170.
56. Ibid, 170.
57. Hoffmann, 52; "Joseph Smith-History," The Pearl of Great
Price, 1:31; Lucy Smith in, An Insider's View, 256.
58. An Insider's View, 154; see also Hoffmann, 43.
59. Hoffmann, 16, 35; An Insider's View, 152n28. David Whitmer
(hair), in Preston Nibley; Leman Copley (gray apparel); Abner Cole (hat),
July 7, 1830.
| Road Trip And Grant Palmer's "An Insider's View Of Mormon Origins" |
Tuesday, Feb 14, 2006, at 08:07 AM
Original Author(s): Iconoclast
Topic: GRANT PALMER -Link To MC Article-
| ↑ |
| This is a short story that illustrates the effectiveness of Grant Palmer's "An Insider's View of Mormon Origins"
I purchased my copy directly from Deseret Books. I took the receipt (from DesBooks) and taped it inside the cover. I then took the color-copied pages (including the reviews) from their website and entered it inside the other cover.
I was in the Bishopric at the time my son came home from a less-than-faith-promoting-experience mission. He took a job that allowed us to travel together and before we left home he was looking for some reading material. He is a very avid reader. He went to our bookcase and bypassed all the Hugh Nibley, Daniel Peterson, John Sorensen stuff that he was already familiar with and picked four: Mormon America, An Insider's View of Mormon Origins, In Sacred Loneliness and Emma Hale Smith:Mormon Enigma. The latter two were checked out from the library.
I was driving when he started reading AIVoMO and he was totally engaged. Several times he would stop and just stare off into the distance contemplating what he had read. Other times he would come across something and say "Did you know this?" or "Can you believe this?" or some other such comment. I think he was surprised that I was familiar with the subject matter and that I was able to provide historical background and some context to what was in the book.For the most part I just confirmed that what he was reading was correct history.
Before he left on his mission he and I had taken a very keen interest in all things related to apologetics and had developed a serious study of FARMS materiel particularly the archeology of the BOM in Arabia as well as the New World. He was very familiar with Nahom, Wadi Sayq (Bountiful), Nibley, Peterson, and Sorensen et al. He had taken particular interest in Egyptology and its relation to the BoA.
However, he finished reading AIVoMO with very little interruption and without any opinions from me to push his own thinking one way or the other. I felt for him because what I had taken nearly two years to digest was download on him in a matter of 4 or 5 hours. He had been home from his mission for only a couple of months.
In any event, I will never forget his reaction when finally concluded the book. He closed it firmly, looked up and stared out the window for a few moments and then, without changing his gaze said, "It was a clever hoax wasn't it?"
I let a few minutes pass for it all to sink in and then asked him how he felt to be exposed to all of this. He said, "Dad, I need to know this." after a few more minutes passed, he corrected himself and said "Dad, I HAVE to know if I am expected to spend the rest of my life committed to something like this. I am the type of person that has just got to know"
It was tough to see him have to adjust to this but, he began (very much according to character) another intense study of church history along a new path. He has developed an impressive knowledge of the issues in the two years since this took place. He has helped to gently guide his Mom and 6 siblings along a path to where the whole family (at varying degrees) is now by and large familiar with the problems so often dealt with here.
| New Mormon Stories Podcast - An Interview with Grant Palmer |
Tuesday, May 16, 2006, at 07:54 AM
Original Author(s): Mormonstories
Topic: GRANT PALMER -Link To MC Article-
| ↑ |
| Grant Palmer, Preisthood Restoration, And Those Guys Over There |
Friday, May 19, 2006, at 08:29 AM
Original Author(s): Mad Viking
Topic: GRANT PALMER -Link To MC Article-
| ↑ |
| Today I spent a little time over at "the board that shall not be named". I had heard that they were discussing Grant Palmer over there so I went to take a look. A particular poster was challenging the other posters to give their best refutation of Palmer's arguement about the restoration of the Priesthood. The poster supplied several quotes from Palmer's book and some statements made by a very well known FARMS apologist Daniel C. Peterson (D) refuting Palmer's assertions. In particular D implies that only a researcher who was not "conscientious" or a "truth seeker" would have neglected to include the evidence he produced regarding this matter. D accuses Palmer of relying "heavily upon late reminiscences, a reliance that leaves one deeply puzzled regarding his principle of selection." D then provides two quotes to support the restoration taking place in the time and fashion officially declared by the church.
Of Palmer, D says, "He fails, for example, to mention Parley Pratt's first encounter with Hyrum Smith, in Palmyra, New York, during late August of 1830. Hyrum, Pratt recalls, told him of "the commission of his brother Joseph, and others, by revelation and the ministering of angels, by which the apostleship and authority had been again restored to the earth." (Autobiography of Parley P. Pratt (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 1985), 22.)
About the Autobiography of Parley P. Pratt, the Harold B. Lee Library gave the following description:
"The autobiography,... was compiled from "various forms of manuscript, some in book form, some in loose leaves, whilst others were extracts from the Millennial Star, and other publications." The task of compiling, collating, and editing was laid upon Pratt's oldest son Parley P. Pratt, Jr. who was charged "just before [Parley's] departure on his last mission to the United States" with the "responsibility of publishing his history... Pratt's untimely death on May 13, 1857 required the younger Pratt to "[discharge the] duty..."
I cannot find a reference for when P.P.P. wrote or dictated this recollection (I am just a lowly doubter, that does not have the time or resources of the likes of D). D accuses Palmer of relying "heavily upon late reminiscences, but supplies no date for P.P.P. making such a statement. Why wouldn't D provide the exact date that Parley made this statement to avoid being accused of that which he was indicting Palmer of? Furthermore, Parley would have had to make this statement prior to the date Palmer sets for the formulation of the preisthood restoration for it to have any bearing on Palmer's arguements.
Let's assume that Parley's son took the statement from Parley's journal dated soon there after the meeting with Hyrum in question (specifying that Parley was "recall(ing)" this meeting, this does not seem likely). Let's also assume that Parley "recalls" Hyrum's word verbatim (another unlikely occurance). Given those two generous assumptions, what we still have here is a case of "hear say, twice removed". Hyrum telling Parley about Joseph and Oliver's experiences is "hear-say". Parley's son, extracting the statements from Parley's writings is "hear-say, twice removed". (Is that a real phrase, or did I just make it up?) But, let's be generous (because I don't know were in the writing of Parley the quote came from) and assume that this quote was written by Parley and put into his autobiography verbatim by his son. This fact (it is hear-say) alone gives Palmer cause to omit it from his book.
The second quote that D thinks Palmer should have included in his book is one made by Philo Dibble. About this reference D says, "Nor, oddly, does Palmer mention Philo Dibble's memory of Joseph Smith standing up in a meeting in a barn on Sunday, 8 July 1832–just after Sidney Rigdon had upset the Saints by suggesting that the keys of authority had been taken away from the church–and testifying: "No power can pluck those keys from me, except the power that gave them to me; that was Peter, James, and John." (Philo Dibble, "Philo Dibble's Narrative," in Early Scenes in Church History, Faith-Promoting Series 8, ed. George Q. Cannon (Salt Lake City: Juvenile Instructor Office, 1882), 80.) D explains that by chance he "happen to have run across the Dibble reference in Jeffrey S. O'Driscoll, Hyrum Smith: A Life of Integrity (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 2003), 68–69).
While it is true, that Palmer does not directly quote Dibble, he does in fact refer the reader to the very document that D says the document is found in regarding this very matter. This reference is found on page 230, #38 of "An Insiders View of Mormon Origins".
The Dibble recollections were published in the 1880s. I cannot find when exactly they were recorded or dictated by Dibble. Again, to avoid being accused of doing that which he accuses Palmer of doing (relying "heavily upon late reminiscences"), D should supply the original date for this quote.
While searching for information about Dibble I found the following concerning the "lost tribes" at http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/...
"The Narrow Neck Proposition, A Sub Theory -- Associated with the Unknown Planet Theory, but somewhat removed from its basic premise that the Lost Ten Tribes are now supposedly on a "portion of the earth" that has been "separated, detached or taken away from our globe," and placed on some other "planet, orb, sphere, and or near another star somewhere in the universe," is the "Narrow Neck Proposition." This "proposition" (perhaps better referred to as a kind of "sub-theory" of the main Unknown Planet Theory) states that "attached" to the earth by "a narrow neck of land" are two spheres (invisible or otherwise) which vary in size - one which is connected to the earth "north of the north pole" and the other which is connected to our globe "south of the south pole."
This proposition is based on a drawing which the Prophet Joseph Smith supposedly drew about the year 1842, and which was later secured and preserved by Philo Dibble, of Springville, Utah.
Dibble later made a copy of the drawing in 1884 which he then gave to Matthew W. Dalton, a resident of Willard, Utah, who eventually published it in 1906. Dalton states that Dibble informed him the Prophet said that in the drawing (see Figure A) the sphere marked "A" represented the earth, and that the Ten Tribes were on the sphere marked "B". He did not state the purpose for sphere "C", but others have thought it to be the location of the City of Enoch. The following is the history and meaning of the drawing as given by Matthew Dalton.
Now, how was the diagram obtained? The Prophet Joseph Smith drew the original drawing a short time before his death, or in 1842, in the presence of several witnesses. Philo Dibble, of Springville, Utah, was one of these witnesses, and secured the drawing. In the month of May, of the year 1884, he made a copy thereof for me, the diagram herein shown being the result, with the possible exception that the spheres marked B and C were perhaps somewhat smaller than shown herein. At the time the original drawing was made the brethren were discussing the disappearance of the Ten Tribes and wondering where they were, upon which the Prophet made the drawing and stated that the Ten Tribes were located on the sphere marked B.
Some may, and even do, doubt the truth of the diagram of the spheres A and B and C, and even the statement as to how the diagram was obtained. Yet it is nevertheless true. It was drawn in the presence of William and Sarah Beecher and myself in the year 1884 by Philo Dibble, above shown as a resident of Springville, Utah County, Utah. His son, Sidney Dibble, who is now alive and a resident of Springville, went before a notary public and on oath testified that this diagram of A,B and C, was a true facsimile of a drawing made by his father. His affidavit will appear at the close of this book. (Taken from the book) "The Lost Tribes", by R. Clayton Bough, pp 51-55.)"
Would D find Dibble's recollections about what the prophet thought about the location of the "lost tribes" as reliable as his recollections about the preisthood restoration? Oh wait, this exerpt is hear-say. Nevermind.
Smoke and mirrors my friends. Smoke and mirrors.
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