THE MORMON CURTAIN
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MORMON TEMPLES - SECTION 1
This topic is reserved for discussion, events and stories surrounding Mormon Temple participation, attendance or other. It is generally a collection of stories of Mormons who have attended Temples and their feelings.
| Here was my list of questions about the temple endowment:
- Why are the days of creation different than those recorded in the Book of Moses and Genesis? The third and fourth days are backwards in the endowment ceremony.
- In the Mormon scripture Book of Moses 3:15-25 it says that God commanded the man (Adam) not to eat from the tree of good and evil. God didn't command the woman, because she had not been created yet. So why is the endowment film different than the Mormon scriptural account?
- How did Peter, James and John get bodies before they were born? Peter shakes Adam's hand, so we know they weren't spirits. According to Joseph Smith's handshake test for discerning evil spirits from good spirits, Peter should have refused to shake Adam's hand (unless he had been resurrected).
- Satan wears an apron that he says is a symbol of his power and priesthood. Why then does Adam, Eve and the temple congregation moments later obey Satan when he commands them to put on aprons?
- How could Jesus be on the right hand of God, in physical form looking like his identical twin, when Jesus had not been born or resurrected yet? Jesus says in the Bible and BoM that he wasn't perfected until AFTER the atonement.
- So was Lucifer a snake as it says in the scriptures, or a man like it shows in the temple?
- Lucifer picks the apple off the tree and gives it to Eve. But Lucifer doesn't have a body! What's up with that?
- Where did Lucifer get his preacher that was preaching to Adam and Eve? Was he for real or just a ghost? If just a ghost, why was he dressed as a protestant minister with the collar for Adam and Eve to see?
- The Book of Abraham as well as the modern prophets have taught us that the earth was created around the star Kolob. It orbited God's solar system until AFTER the fall, when it was hurled through space and placed in this solar system. This scriptural doctrine contradicts the endowment, where we see the creation of the moon and it mentions our sun and the other planets too. (See http://www.i4m.com/think/lists/mormon_science.htm)
- If the Kolob doctrine is true, why is this not included in the endowment, which is supposed to be the "Lord's University"?
- Why go through the creation story if it is not true and contradicts Mormon doctrine and the Book of Abraham?
- If the endowment is actual history, then why was it so radically changed in April 1990? Whole sections were altered and others deleted! If the endowment represented real history, how could it change? Was it not true to the actual events all along? Is the new version "more true to history?" (See: http://www.i4m.com/think/temples/temple_changes.htm)
- In April 1990 the covenants and penalties of the endowment ceremony also changed dramatically. Didn't Jesus say in the scriptures that a sign of false churches is that they change his covenants?
- Where do you find a clear description of these "laws' mentioned in the temple?
1. Law of Obedience
2. Law of Sacrifice
3. Law of Elohim
4. Law of the Lord
5. Law of the Gospel
6. Law of Chastity
7. Law of Consecration
- Some of those laws that temple patrons covenant to obey are never mentioned or explained outside the temple. If they are literal laws of God that must be obeyed, why are they not all clearly identified and expounded upon in church discourse?
- What is the difference between "legally" and "lawfully" as said in the temple endowment covenant?
- Adam raises his arms in the "true order of prayer", and who answers his prayer? Satan. Does this mean Satan can answer even prayers given in the "true order" ordained by God? What prayer is safe from not being intercepted by Satan? (See: http://helpingmormons.org/compare.htm)
- Did God really send Peter, James and John down to earth and give Adam and Eve those silly temple clothes to wear? They didn't have a temple, so when did Adam and Eve wear them?
- How could Peter, James and John be involved in the whole thing when they hadn't been born yet, hadn't been baptized and had not been through the temple? They weren't wearing garments themselves, so how could they be worthy to participate in the endowment events?
- Temple workers stand is as proxys for Elohim and Jehovah during the ceremony, which makes it very sacred. But since someone also stands in as a literal proxy for Satan, doesn't that make the temple unholy?
- What is the purpose of learning the "true order of prayer" if it can never be practiced outside of the temple ceremony?
- Why does God require secret handshakes, names and passwords to pass through the veil and enter his presence? Can't God look into our hearts and know whether or not we are worthy?
- Why are temple patrons required to make death oaths, when they are expressly forbidden by God in Mormon scripture? (see: http://www.i4m.com/think/temples/temple_oaths.htm)
- If the endowment is centered on Jesus Christ, why isn't Christ's two top commandments included in the endowment covenants - love God and love your neighbor? Why isn't there mention of Christ's sermon on the mount or other teachings on charity and compassion?
Did anyone else wonder about this stuff before you realized the whole thing was a fraud?
| In order for Mormons to be saved in Heaven, they have to know a secret handshake, a secret password, a secret new "name" and must be endowed and sealed. They do all of this in their temples. But in order for a Mormon to get into the temple, they have to pay the Mormon Church 10% of their gross income for one year and be completely obedient to church law such as no masturbation, no sex outside of marriage, no homosexual acts and more. Mormons must go through a lengthy interview in order to receive a Temple Recommend (TR) where they must profess that Gordon B. Hinckley is a prophet of God and that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God.
The cost, however, is more. Mormons must either rent or purchase temple clothes and garments.
The ceremonial clothing page at www.ldscatalog.com was accessible until late-2004. In "the good old days", the website asked for a TR number, and any random seven-digit number would work. Now, most likely in reaction to this board and the auction of temple clothing/garments on eBay, the site now requires your name, date of birth, and member number (for garments), and TR number (for ceremonial clothing). You cannot view the items or prices without this information (i.e. inactives could access at least the garments page; I don't know if someone with a valid member # has faked a TR# to access the temple clothing page).
I did view the ceremonial clothing page while it was still "public" (I would enter a random number for the TR) and these are the price ranges I recall:
1. Robe: $25-28 (higher for pleated model, lower for gathered model). I believe that the robe price included the sash, though they sold replacement sashes
2. Apron: $10-12 or so. There are square-cut and
3. Cap (men) about $5, veil (women) about $8.
4. Envelope (the "packet" in which the clothing is folded and packed): about $3-5.
All told, a round figure of roughly $60 seems to ring a bell. Of course, this does not include the cost of white temple clothing (white dress or skirt/blouse for women; white pants/tie/shirt or jumpsuit for men) which is worn underneath the ceremonial clothing.
So if any Mormon tells you there is no money changing going on at their temples, they are lying. You have to bring cash in order to rent clothes if you don't have your own. This is why all the little old men and little old ladies coming and going from the Mormon temples are carrying tiny suitcases.
Ask them that if they need to be pure in order to enter the temple, why are there lockers with locks on them in the temple?
| Ever wonder what today's Mormon Church would be like if Joseph Smith had never practiced polygamy?
Here's just a few of the lasting legacies due to Joseph Smith "restoring" the doctrine of Polygamy:
1. Creation of Temple Endowment
In order to keep Smith's Polygamy a secret, he came up with the temple endowment with its oaths of secrecy. For the first year, only a very select few men received the endowment and all were sworn to secrecy based on a death oath. By using a secret ceremony and oaths, Smith was able to keep his practice of polygamy a secret for years. History of the Church Volume 5:1 documents these first meetings and the participants. They were all in Smith's inner-circle of polygamy. Heber C. Kimball's journal (1840-45) also describes the introduction of the secret endowment as it relates to polygamy.
2. Closing of Temple Marriages
The practice of closed Temple marriages started with polygamy. Before polygamy in Nauvoo, mormon marriages were performed anywhere. In fact, those performed in the Kirtland Temple were open to non members! Joseph Smith's own diary lists marriages he performed in the temple, which included non-members as participants and as witnesses. See "The Personal Writings of Joseph Smith, 1835-1836." Today, mormons have the tradition of closed temple marriages as a direct legacy of Smith's attempt to keep polygamy a closely-guarded secret. When he was marrying other men's wives without their knowledge, he had to have the ceremonies closed and secret.
3. Concept of Eternal Marriage
Until Smith started secretly practicing polygamy, Smith taught that marriage was until death only. That's right - the doctrine of "together forever" started when he began proposing to other women. He told them that marrying him would "seal" their whole family to him "forever." But before these proposals, Smith believed and taught that marriage ended at death. In fact, before Nauvoo, his love letters to his first wife Emma reflect his beliefs. In a letter to Emma on May 18th, 1834, Smith signed "...your husband until death." Writing from Carthage Jail on 4 November 1838, Smith told his wife "If I do not meet you again in this life may God grant that we may somehow meet in heaven."
4. The term "Celestial Marriage"
Modern mormons think this means monogamous temple marriage. Actually, this term always referred exclusively to plural marriage until the 1890s. Until that time, faithful members married in the temple to only one spouse did not have a celestial marriage! According to ALL Church presidents until 1890, celestial marriage was achieved only by marriage to multiple wives. See 27 Rules of Celestial Marriage, by Apostle Orson Pratt. Also, William Clayton said: "From Joseph Smith I learned that the doctrine of plural and celestial marriage is the most holy and important doctrine ever revealed to man on the earth, and that without obedience to that principle, no man can ever attain to the fullness of exaltation in celestial glory." Historical Record, Vol. 6, pp. 225-227. Read even more historical references here:
5. The Practice of "Sealings"
Once again, before polygamy, marriage was just that; marriage. But to take on a second wife, especially one that was already married, a new term needed to be used, so it wouldn't sound like adultery. Smith chose to call his plural marriages "sealings." Reference from Emma Hale Smith Biography, page 140: "Simultaneously with the endowment and plural marriage, Joseph formalized a third concept. He explained to Emma (for the first time) that husbands and wives could be married, 'sealed,' forever by proper priesthood authority. Understanding this new doctrine led to the next step, which was the marriage of a living husband to several living wives. This doctrine seemed to alleviate some of the repugnance to plural marriage." This allowed women that already had husbands to say they were married to their first husband, but sealed to Smith. Although women had sex with both Smith and their husbands, they perceived the marriage contract different.
6. Creation and Wearing of Secret Garments
These too, were a result of Smith's polygamous affairs. It started with the secret circle of men that accepted and practiced his plural wife doctrine. It was his way of setting them apart from monogamous men. It was originally the "uniform" required for men to perform spiritual wifery. Reference from Emma Hale Smith Biography, page 140: "After being involved in the construction and design of the garments, the building of the temple, and hearing about their place in the endowment in the Relief Society (by Smith), why had women not been admitted to the Endowment? Joseph taught that a man must obey God to be worthy of the endowment and that a wife must obey a righteous husband to merit the same reward. Until Emma could be obedient to Joseph (see DandC Sec. 132) and give him plural wives, she could not participate in the endowment ceremonies, yet Smith taught her that the endowment was essential for exaltation."
Brigham Young and Joseph F. Smith condemned Smith for taking off his garments before he went to Carthage Jail. Part of their reason was that it was a sign he had regretted his practice of polygamy. "Smith removed his own endowment "robe" or garment before he went to Carthage Jail and told those with him to do likewise. His nephew Joseph F. Smith later explained, "When Willard Richards was solicited [by Smith] to do the same, he declined, and it seems little less than marvelous that he was preserved without so much as a bullet piercing his garments."" (The Mormon Hierarchy : Origins of Power, page 146) Michael Quinn references Heber J. Grant journal sheets, 7 June 1907, LDS Archives.
7. Design of Modern Temples
Why was the Nauvoo temple so different than the Kirtland temple? Both came from the same unchanging God, right? The Kirtland Temple was actually an expensive church, not an endowment house like the Nauvoo temple. Modern temples with their closed doors, secret ceremonies and odd clothing started in the polygamy-inspired Navuoo temple. In fact, the whole concept of a "Celestial Room" was created to reinforce the doctrine that Smith would be with all of his wives in "heaven" as one big family. The touching experience today when mormon families reunite after the veil in the temple, started out as an experience Smith could use to show how polygamy worked in heaven.
Polygamy (one man married to two or more living wives) may not be practiced today in the church, but its influence on church doctrine and practices still haunts the lives of millions of active members. The temple endowment, garments and oaths of secrecy all have their origins in Joseph Smith's practice of polygamy.
| So what really is the symbolic meaning of the green apron in the temple?
Satan first tells Adam and Eve to put on the apron to cover their nakedness. So you'd think it would be a symbol of Satan or covering nakedness.
But then God kicks Adam and Eve out of the garden and gives them (and temple patrons) garments to cover their nakedness. So why do they still need the green apron?
Later, patrons add priesthood robes over their garments, as did adam and eve. But then they have to put put the green apron on again ontop of the other clothes.
This apron stays with you for the rest of the endowment, all the way to the Celestial Room. Why?
Even during temple marriages, couples have to wear the green apron as part of their clothing.
The temple is supposed to prepare you to become like God, yet God and Jesus don't wear the apron in the temple. The only one wearing an apron besides the temple patrons is Satan, who says his represents his power and "priesthoods."
Mormon folklore would have us believe the apron is a symbol of life, as explained on my web site:
But does this really make sense? What's the meaning of wearing the apron on top of all of the other temple clothing?
| Does this bother anyone else? I know that me, my brothers and sisters, my husband, and probably my children, and many of my cousins are most likely on the Temple Prayer Rolls of every temple in North America. LOL!
It is offensive to me that people who know me and supposedly love me, think that I have some problem that needs to be prayed about. It is one thing to ask for prayers and blessings, but to have people do it behind your back the way the Temple Prayer Rolls work is unbelievably stupid. Do mormons even realize that even this practice is offensive to others who do not wish for their prayers?
I do not believe in prayer, nor God, and I know it is not harming anyone, but sometimes it makes me want to call and put these "offenders" on the rolls of the local KKK or Satanic organization so they can know how it feels.
| As you can see from this list, the church is building temples at a very slow pace again. In fact, if you check out the list of "Temples Announced or Under Construction", only 5 of the 10 temples on the list are even under construction, and only 1 out of those 10 has a date set for its dedication.
Some of the temples on the list appear to be completely stalled. For example, the Harrison New York temple was announced in 1995, and the Kiev Ukraine temple was announced in 1998, but neither project has actually broken ground.
2004 saw the opening of only 3 temples and 2003 saw 2. Given how long the other temples have taken to build, it is doubtful that more an 2 or 3 temples could be opened in 2005 (so far only San Antonio appears to be the only one for this year).
I know a few people who work at the Seattle Temple, and my father was an initiatory director there until 2001 (when he passed away). From all accounts I've been given, the Seattle Temple is highly underutilized. It is the church's 5th largest temple, and it receives fewer visitors than most of the smaller regional temples.
From what I have been told by Mormons and ex-Mormons in other parts of the United States, many other temples are faring just as poorly in attendance.
Simply factoring what we know about church activity, resignation rates, and waning conversion rates, I really think the church is doing the right thing in slowing its temple building. It seems unlikely that the flurry of temple openings in recent years (60 temples were opened between 1999 and 2002) was in response to demand; many Mormons are aware that numerous temples have cut their operating hours over the last decade. It looks like LDS Inc. has finally realized that their temple growth was unwarranted and not in step with actual membership.
Now that we see conversion rates declining and there seem to be more resignations every year, I wonder how long it will be before a temple is forced to close its doors on weekdays or shut down altogether.
Combining wards and stakes rarely results in the closure of a chapel. Closing a temple would be a black eye for the church because members have traditionally been expected to make "temple trips" that require them to drive several hours to the temple and stay overnight if necessary. A temple closure would signal that the members are no longer willing to make such sacrifices, whereas a chapel closure could merely signal a changing local demographic.
Temples must cost an enormous amount of money to maintain. Their laundry bills alone must have been enormous (I believe this was overcome by the recent requirement that members provide their own temple clothes- no more renting temple clothes). I wonder how long it will be until they ask members to perform janitorial and ground-keeping duties, or until a collection box is bolted in the entry vestibule.
| Has anyone heard of the following: If a Young Woman is on her period, she may not do baptisms for the dead in the temple. I brought it up to my TBM husband last night and he thought this was the funniest thing. I had forgotten about it, but it came up last night when I was trying to explain to him how many doctrines are emotionally abusive to women. Then this memory came out of nowhere. Am I smoking crack, or was this once a policy? I remember when I was a young woman in the San Antonio East Stake (mid 80s early 90s) that we were not allowed to do baptisms for the dead if we were on our period. We were allowed to go to the temple and sit through the ordinances, but we were not allowed to go into the font and do baptisms by proxy. I distinctly remember being told this by my leaders. I remember that girls would freak out because they’d get their period on the ride up to the temple. They’d sit there in the temple crying because they couldn’t get the “blessings” that come from doing work for the dead.
At the time, my 12 year old brain thought it had something to do with getting blood in the water. That blood would get in the water and stain the white clothes or something. Yea, and I also thought I could get pregnant from swimming with boys, but that’s a post for another day. Now that I know better I know this had nothing to do with it. I know that many doctrines have misogynistic origins. Its all part of the paradox lip service “Heavenly Father loves his daughters so much (even more than his sons) and their bodies are sacred, but their bodies are also offensive to him.” I’m not a scriptorian and have always been bored by GA talks, past and present, so I don’t have a reference to give my wonderful husband. He thinks I just had psycho leaders and doesn’t believe that any GA or good priesthood leader would believe this because he doesn’t. What is the origin of menstruation being part of Eve’s curse and therefore unholy while also being sacred (paradox)? I know this had to have come from a prick holder, I mean, priesthood holder. Can anyone help me out? Something smells funny about this one (ha, ha).
If things have changed, I'm glad.
I was baptized in the SLC and Logan temples. It was stressed before leaving and at the temples that girls having periods had to whisper the fact to a leader and be excused from participating.
That was embarrassing for some girls because everyone knew why they were being excluded, and the boys smirked about it.
Every girl also had to strip and be observed naked before they could put on their jumpsuit. This was to prove they weren't mensturating. It was also to prove that they didn't have underwear beneath their suits. An old lady told us that the a bit of colored stitching for days of the week (which we all wore then) on panties or a little gray elastic in the waistlines could invalidate the ritual. That would prevent the spirit women from ascending to the next kingdom of heaven.
I remember going on a trip to Washington, D.C., and one of the girls who was with us wasn't allowed to participate. She cried the whole time, even though they gave her stuff to do (carry towels, check off names, etc.).
So, later, when *I* went, and was similarly, um, "impaired," I just used, uh, "internal protection," and didn't say anything. I recall being a little nervous, thinking that the temple worker might be able to 'discern' that I was pulling a fast one, but nothing happened.
The excuse WE were given was that it was not "hygenic" to go into the water, if you were menstruating. Now, I knew that this was a load of bunk, especially if you were using tampons, so that's why I was so ready to hold back the truth. Had I really been convinced that I was somehow spreading bacteria, I would have been less likely to fib.
Funny, though--being told this "policy" didn't change my idea that the temple was a holy place, and we were doing holy ordinances; I only thought that the temple worker was old and behind the times, to think that a menstruating girl was somehow going to contaminate the baptismal font.
Women were asked to not even do endowment sessions if they were menstruating, for the "reason" that if one's dress were to become stained it caused too much commotion and would hold things up.
I was in a session when this occured. A sister was going through prior to her mission, and her lovely (bought/made for the occasion) dress was bloodstained on the back. The shame was that she had gone to the temple ON HER PERIOD, and look at what a problem she had caused by daring to LEAK so that the little old ladies had to help her clean things up while the session was delayed, and How Dare She.
It was SO scandalous that the blood was ascribed to a recent surgery rather than "the curse."
Nowadays, this Goddess celebrates moon-time by wearing red clothing and jewelry, nurturing herself, and yes, making love to a man who is not intimidated by a woman's power.
But mens repulsion with period blood is there in black and white in the bible. I forget where but its somewhere in the first 5 books of the old testament. It talks about a woman being unclean during her cycle and unclean after she has had a baby (sheesh!!), and that she should be put away. Its really specific. And orthodox jews still practise the "law" to the full extent i believe. A man is not even allowed to touch his wife or have her pass something to him, as she is so dirty on her period.
You're speaking of tahor, which is often translated as "clean" but in fact has nothing to do with cleanliness. This is the problem with reading the Bible in translation. The word means "purity," not "cleanliness."
There is a big difference. For example, if I took a slab of bacon, cooked it in my frying pan, then washed the frying pan, the pan would be clean. It would not, however, be tahor.
Right now, I'm taking a break after preparing dinner, while it cooks. I won't clean the kitchen until after we've eaten and the plates are stacked in the kitchen sink. My kitchen right now is dirty. HOWEVER, it is also tahor and kasher, pure and kosher, because I follow the laws of kashrut. Kosher (KOH-shurr), also pronounced kasher (kah-SHARE), means "in accordance with the law." Tahor means ritually pure. My kitchen is both -- even when it is dirty -- because I obey the laws set down in the Hebrew Bible.
Women of Israel (Hebrews, Jews) are instructed to immerse themselves in a mikvah, a ritual bath, after they finish menstruating each month. Yes, you're right. Menstruating women are considered tamei, impure. The thing that you're not remembering about the Bible is that men, too, need to ritually immerse after every seminal emission. Neither menstrual blood nor semen is considered dirty. They do, however, render the person who issues them tamei. This is not about sexism, and it's not about dirty or clean. It's about a spiritual discipline.
Feel free to think that is stupid, but at least get your facts right, and scoff at the right thing.
| You can call the temple and have anyone put on the temple prayer list(or have a name put on the list when you are visiting the temple). People might do this because someone they know is sick, needs comfort, needs a special blessing, needs to come back to the fold, etc.
Once a list is compiled, it is then placed on the altar in a white bag. The temple endowment session attendees will circle around the altar in the patriarchal grip(boy girl, boy girl fashion) then enter into the "true order of prayer"(oh god hear the words of mouth...").
The endowment officiator is the voice for the prayer(in an unscripted prayer), he may kneel at the altar, and he makes the sign of the second token of the aaronic priesthood. Women all have their faces veiled in the circle, too. The circle of people then echo whatever the officiator says in the prayer.
Generally, the officiator and his wife(often a retired couple) ask people from the "audience" to be in the circle. I always hated being picked for that and my wife hated it because you had to stand the whole time(and the officiator can get windy there). Standing up there and in a veil was a sweaty experience my wife says. The veil was extremely hot.
I have never seen someone not go to the circle when chosen. Nearly as bad is when the officiator asks a couple to be the adam and eve up at the altar. I hated that, too, and it seems like my wife and I were always picked for that.
| My wife wanted to do sealings. We had never done sealings in this particular temple. To make a long story short, the guy at the front desk gave us some ambiguous instructions regarding what to do and where to go. With that said, my wife was already upstairs all the while I was waiting for her downstairs (just outside the dressing room by the escalators.) After waiting well beyond the start-time of the sealings session, I figured that I missed out on receiving my temple blessings for that day. Damn! I felt so bad. ;)
But I continued to wait because I had nothing else to do. I walked to and from the prayer-roll station a few times. I really wanted to add a [bogus] name to the prayer roll, but I was hesitant at first (i.e., up to this point in my life, I have never written any names to the prayer roll, so I was not quite sure what to do. Even whan I was a TBM, I thought the idea was stupid. Does the lord prioritize [vain repititious] prayer-circle prayers over sincere [non-prayer-circle] prayers? I think this is why I have never put names on the prayer roll.) Anyway, on with my story ...
It was apparent that an endowment session had just ended because a bunch of temple-garb-clad patrons came down the escalators. This one particular couple arrived at the prayer roll station and proceeded to add like 20 names each (completely disregarding the clear instructions of "making long lists is inappropriate.") They were there for 4 or 5 minutes writing names down with full faith that the prayer roll is actually effective. After they left, I proceeded to the prayer-roll station. Rather than adding to the long list, I took one of the small single-use papers (i.e., it's just big enough to write a single name on it.) For the very first time in my life I added a name to the prayer roll; ironically, as a non-believer. The name I added was none other than "Joe Blow" himself.
As an "active" non-believing member of the church, it was very theraputic for me to perform this deed of passive-deviance. However, I am surprised that none of the temple workers approached me and caught me in the act of my misdeed, they do have the gift of discernment afterall. Anyway, I sure hope that Joe Blow gets better and all goes well for him and his family (and I especially hope that the two-week time limit of being on the prayer roll is enough for him to receive adequate blessings.) There are plenty of anecdotal stories floating around regarding individuals who have gotten better because their name was on the prayer roll; surely Joe Blow will be fully healed of his disease and affliction.
| I'll never forget my first temple session with my friend that converted me to the Church. As if I wasn't stressed enough as is trying to tie a sash in a bow and it had to be over top of the apron and the robe had to be from this side to this side.
I figure stepping into the shoes was simple enough. Just slide 'em on. Thank god something simple that I know how to do. Wrong!!!
I had made the god awful mistake of putting my left one on first. I got sternly tapped on the leg and my friend nudged me and said TAKE THAT ONE OFF AND PUT THE RIGHT ONE ON FIRST.
Talk about a look of bewilderment. I was even more confused. I hated that whole experience. I am just wondering if any of you were ever told such a silly thing.
Later when I asked her about it when we were allowed to talk. (AKA OUTSIDE THE TEMPLE), she said it was just like passing the sacrament -- that you were to use your right hand. Ha -- I had never paid attention to what hand I used to pass the sacrament to the next person. That bugged me for so long but I studied the ward minions and many of them indeed always passed it with their right hand. And once the friend mumbled something about "Right hand of God" having something to do with why to put the right shoe on first.
God what a freaking cult I was in.
| I was with a group of women who drove for an hour and a half to show up for ward-assigned duty at the Seattle temple. In our group was a woman who was very, very close to her due date with her first child.
Any woman who's been pregnant can back me up on this - there is NOTHING that will lift a waddling expectant mother's spirits like a new outfit!
Sister Due-any-minute had such an outfit on. Her husband had lovingly picked it out for her. She loved it and felt pretty for the first time in months. It was a most unusual outfit. It looked like a salwar kameez (an Indian long tunic and pants set), but it was actually all one piece. The dress part came down past mid-calf, and somehow the bottom folded over with two short "cuffs" attached at the bottom. It looked like a long dress over fitted trousers, with just a couple of inches of cuff showing at the ankles.
The temple worker at the front desk told her it was disrespectful to try and "sneak in" with pants on, and to go and "take those things off this minute!" Sister Due-any-minute explained that they weren't pants, they were just cuffs at the bottom of the dress. "I don't care what they are, either take them off or wait in the parking lot for your friends!"
Again, she explained that she couldn't take her feet out of the cuffs without taking off the whole dress. She was still refused entry.
She went back to the car, and in her terribly pregnant condition, somehow managed to get the outfit off and then get back into it with her ankles out. She took the two cuffs and tied them together so they wouldn't flop around as she walked.
"That's better!" sez the temple worker, "now, you ARE wearing pantyhose under there, aren't you?" She was wearing knee-his, but answered yes anyway. Thankfully, the temple worker didn't feel the need to check just how far up the nylons went, and Sister Due-any-minute was admitted to spend a grueling afternoon, sitting, standing, getting dressed and undressed and playing handshakes at the veil.
| Move over G8 Leaders! Forget about cancelling debt and trade justice for Africa!
The mormons have the answer to prosperity in Africa: Build a Temple!
National Public Affairs Council of the church, President Cornelius Tay comments in the article about the new temple in Africa.
Tay said: "President Hinckley, the prophet and several Apostles of the church have all prophesied concerning Nigeria that with the opening of Aba temple, our nation will be blessed and will witness prosperity and stability."
Hmmmm...anybody see this "prophesy" from the Church leaders??
| Please tell me that, growing up in the church, I did not endure endless patronising comments of, "You'll understand everything better when you get to the temple."--when I just wanted to learn all the secrets RIGHT NOW. (I can't help it; I'm a naturally curious person. Huge secretive things like the temple kept me awake at night.)
Please tell me that I didn't sit through endless lectures about keeping myself morally clean--where they hedged around the issue of sex but never came right out and said anything for sure, leaving me to think that there was some unnameable force (most likely Satan) that would possess me and force me to do vile things with random boys (and which, by the way, took YEARS to undo the thinking that, because I'm a woman, my body was somehow an instrument of evil because of Eve).
When they passed out a "temple handkerchief" in Young Women's, I completely missed the point. It was a pretty little lace-edged hankie, with an accompanying poem, along the lines that this temple hankie was white and pure; it belonged to Heavenly Father, and if it got dirty, it could be washed again, but would never be quite as good as if it had never needed to be washed at all, blah blah blah. I failed to see this as a metaphor for keeping MYSELF morally clean; I worried about the HANKIE getting dirty; I was afraid to touch the thing. I thought God was going to be watching it all the time. I put it on a shelf in my room. Months later, I looked at it, AND IT WAS COVERED WITH DUST!! I was horrified; I quickly put it in my underwear drawer--and just as quickly took it out again, thinking God would REALLY be pissed that I put a temple hankie in with my underwear. I ended up tossing it in with my socks instead. I still have it to this day; it has the creases where it was folded nearly twenty years ago, and is just showing its age a bit. (Now that I think about it, I would very much like to burn that stupid hankie.)
I left the church when I was eighteen, and my only regret was that I had not gone through the temple, just to satisfy my curiosity. I'm sorry, but they tout it like it's the pinnacle of life here on Earth; if you can't make it there, you can't make it anywhere.
Well. I had read Jerald and Sandra Tanner's book, 'Mormonism, Shadow or Reality?' and enjoyed reading the bit about the temple ceremony. That went a little way to easing my curiosity, but to be honest, it gave me the creeps after only a few lines, and I only skimmed it a bit.
I wrote a post here the other day, for fun, saying that I was feeling really left out because other people had their temple names and experiences. Susan D. (thank you, btw) left a link to a web page with the entire temple ceremony, so I finally read the whole thing.
Let me get this straight: I endured pretty much constant guilt from the time I was twelve, all through my teens, about being morally clean--which I WAS, my parents never ever told me about sex (still haven't, lol) so I was afraid almost to kiss my *two* boyfriends, much less do any other nebulous thing I only half understood with them--and all this, so that I could go to the temple and WATCH A VIDEO???!!?!?! I thought there would be angels ascending and descending, like Jacob's ladder; I thought you could commune with God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost, whenever you wanted. The secrets of the very universe would be spread at my feet. I. Did. Not. Think. You. Went. To. The. Temple. TO WATCH A VIDEO!!!
Yes, yes. You also get to wear stupid-looking clothes and practise idiotic handshakes. Watch out!! I know them now; I'll get through the veil, mormon or not!!
What a complete, disappointing, fucking FARCE.
Thank you, to Susan D., for the webpage; and thank you to Shakey, who gave me my favourite new temple name as a consolation prize, Jezabel. I'll wear it like a badge of honour; it fits.
And thank you most of all to EVE, the mother of all living people. Most likely you were an ape, but if you weren't, and instead were a woman created from the rib of a man, I want to say thank you. You did the right thing eating the fruit. Most likely, Satan was a lot more interesting person than that doofus Adam. If you hadn't eaten that fruit, the rest of us wouldn't be in this mad, bad, beautiful broken world. I don't blame you for eating the fruit; I would have done the same thing.
| This is my first post to RFM after 13 years of inactivity. I'm thinking of removing my name now. I just didn't care for all these years.......
It is true that I completely removed myself from the endowment ceremony in 1991. I was called to Colombia Bogota mission while at BYU in "Deseret Towers - R Hall" to be exact.
I was leery of the mission, but hey colombia sounded like a great experience.
Speed up til May 1991 one month before the MTC. My parents and I were having discussions about the temple. I was very nervous and had many questions. I wondered why not much information was available to the virgin temple goers. Why was it so hush hush?.
My mom tried to explain it me and used words like gowns, annointing of the body and sacred rituals. My dad just told me it would be a new and exciting time in my life. Nevertheless (phrasing BOM) I was utterly confused.
I didn't have any resources available, but one friend who had gone through and had told me it was really weird and awkward. He wouldn't say anything else even after bugging him over and over. What was so secret? I kept thinking about it and why GOD would want to keep it so sacred. I was also studying the new testament and tried to find clues to temples and endowments, etc. I couldn't find my answer there either.
I spoke with my Bishop and he said I had common symptons of many first time temple goers. I felt some assurance with his answer, then again I was 19 and kind of moldable.
The day came and I went into the dressing room. I was handed a shawl like poncho gown. It was bizarre and was led into the initiatory phase. Man I was freaking out. What the F was going happen? My heart was racing. I got to the area and a couple of old brothers began their oil sponge bath. I was very uncomfortable and upset. Why wasn't I told about this?
I finally got dressed to go into the endowment. I had my "pink" tag on and was led from the chapel to the endowment room and was led to the front row.
Then it was quiet and I heard on the overhead speakers the uttering a few simple instructions and then the request if any would withdraw please raise your hands. I can't remember the exact words, but something like that.
I thought for a split second. I raised my hand and the usher came over. He whispered in my ear if I was requesting to be escorted out. I said "yes, I prefer to not participate". A blank look came across his face. He motioned for me to come with him and we went out of the room. My mom and dad were almost frozen.
Out in the hall, he asked me if I was uncomfortable or not felling well. I told him I would prefer not to participate in the ordinance until I understood what it was about.
He ushered my back to the dressing room, quiet as a church mouse. He probably was in disbelief about it all.
2 hours later, I was waiting for my parents in the foyer. They were devastated. My mom was crying and my dad was very perplexed.
They asked me what happened and I told them I felt uncomfortbale and unsure of the oridinance. I had a few weeks to re-decide my endowment and my mission, but each day I got further away from the mission plans. My MTC date came and passed and then a year and two and three.
I don't regret my decision. I didn't do it out of disbelief. I did it because I felt weird. Years later I stumbled across this site and have been a silent lurker ever since.
For 13 years I considered myself inactive. I drank a few beers, got a great career and lived life. I married a non-mormon and we are happy.
I made the right decision from some of the stories i have read.
| Sorry if this has already been posted.
This week a friend told me that they had been instructed to not have painted tonails when attending the temple. I'm not sure if this is church wide, or just her local temple that is issuing the directive.
At first I was trying to think why this mattered, as I couldn't remember ever seeing a woman's tonails in the temple. But I guess when doing initiatory work or baptisms, ones tonails might actually be showing. So now, they can't be painted.
I'm bewildered as I try to understand what the motivation is here. Are painted tonails a show of too much worldliness?
Things just keep getting stranger and stranger...
| As I was growing up and preparing for my "wonderful, special, sacred-but-secret" temple experience I was told in glowing terms how wonderful one feels in the celestial room. In all actuality its just a big room with white furniture. GAG!
Before my exit from the morg I went to the temple for what was my final endowment. Upon exiting the sheet-like drapery with funny symbols I paused as we usually did in the celestial room of the Las Vegas temple. It was the same as it always was, except there was a cheapness to it all. It seemed, well, utterly trite and rather cheap. The plants were plastic - the kind that LOOK plastic and inexpensive, mold-extruded crappy plants from china. Although the furniture was decent it also had a worn-out look reminiscent of the eighties.
I had no "this place is awesome" feeling, thats for sure. I had a "whats the big deal" feeling. I have been through many temples many times. Upon reflection I have come to the same conclusion about all of the temples, and that is that the celestial room is akin to a 2 star hotel lobby.
| After passing two interviews to get the temple recommend-- (see Temple Recommend Questions here: http://www.lds-mormon.com/veilworker/... either on the day of the marriage, or earlier, and going through the Endowment Ceremony: Washing and Anointing ceremony where the Holy Garment of the Priesthood (notice ladies, you wear the same garment of the Holy Priesthood!), is placed on you and covenanting to obey: |
The Law of Obedience
The Law of Sacrifice
The Law of the Gospel
The Law of Chastity
The Law of Consecration --which is:(I am only including this particular one on this post as it has it directly applies to the marriage covenant.)
A couple will now come to the altar. We are instructed to give unto you the Law of Consecration as contained in the book of Doctrine and Covenants, in connection with the Law of the Gospel and the Law of Sacrifice which you have already received.
It is that you do consecrate yourselves, your time, talents, and everything with which the Lord has blessed you, or with which he may bless you, to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, for the building up of the Kingdom of God on the earth and for the establishment of Zion.
All arise. Each of you bring your right arm to the square.
You and each of you covenant and promise before God, angels, and these witnesses at this altar, that you do accept the Law of Consecration as contained in the Doctrine and Covenants, in that you do consecrate yourselves, your time, talents, and everything with which the Lord has blessed you, or with which he may bless you, to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, for the building up of the Kingdom of God on the earth and for the establishment of Zion.
Each of you bow your head and say "yes."
Then and only then may you be sealed in the marriage ceremony.
Here is the ceremony.
Sometimes, the officiator will allow an exchange of rings at the end of the ceremony, and a kiss.
(I don't know the current policy on this practice. Maybe someone else does.)
Officiator: Brother ______, [naming groom] and Sister ______, [naming bride] please join hands in the Patriarchal Grip or Sure Sign of the Nail.
Joins hands in the "Patriarchal Grip, or Sure Sign of the Nail."This token is given by clasping the right hands, interlocking the little fingers and placing the tip of the forefinger upon the center of the wrist. No clothing should interfere with the contact of the forefinger upon the wrist.
Officiator: Brother ______, do you take Sister ______ by the right hand and receive her unto yourself to be your lawful and wedded wife for time and all eternity, with a covenant and promise that you will observe and keep all the laws, rites, and ordinances pertaining to this Holy Order of Matrimony in the New and Everlasting Covenant, and this you do in the presence of God, angels, and these witnesses of your own free will and choice?
Officiator: Sister ______ do you take brother ______ by the right hand and give yourself to him to be his lawful and wedded wife, and for him to be your lawful and wedded husband, for time and all eternity, with a covenant and promise that you will observe and keep all the laws, rites and ordinances pertaining to this Holy Order of Matrimony in the New and Everlasting Covenant, and this you do in the presence of God, angels, and these witnesses of your own free will and choice?
By virtue of the Holy Priesthood and the authority vested in me, I pronounce you ______, and ______, legally and lawfully husband and wife for time and all eternity, and I seal upon you the blessings of the holy resurrection with power to come forth in the morning of the first resurrection clothed in glory, immortality and eternal lives, and I seal upon you the blessings of kingdoms, thrones, principalities, powers, dominions and exaltations, with all the blessings of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and say unto you: be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth that you may have joy and rejoicing in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
All these blessings, together with all the blessings appertaining unto the New and Everlasting Covenant, I seal upon you by virtue of the Holy Priesthood, through your faithfulness, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, Amen.
To make sure one understands exactly what the "New and Everlasting Covenant" is, see: DandC 132
REFERENCE for easy reading: http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/132
Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Nauvoo, Illinois, recorded July 12, 1843, relating to the new and everlasting covenant, including the eternity of the marriage covenant, as also plurality of wives. HC 5: 501–507.
Although the revelation was recorded in 1843, it is evident from the historical records that the doctrines and principles involved in this revelation had been known by the Prophet since 1831.
[INSERT: compare introduction to the 1969 edition of the Book of Mormon.
Here's the 1969 version:
Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Nauvoo, Illinois, recorded July 12, 1843, relating to the new and everlasting covenant, including the eternity of the marriage covenant, as also plurality of wives.
-------The Prophet’s inquiry of the Lord--He is told to prepare himself to receive the new and everlasting covenant--Conditions of this law--The power of the Holy Priesthood instituted by the Lord must be operative in ordinances to be in effect beyond the grave--
Marriage by secular authority is of effect during mortality only--Though the form of marriage should make it appear to be for time and eternity, the ordinance is not valid beyond the grave unless solemnized by the authority of the Holy Priesthood as the Lord directs--
Marriage duly authorized for time and eternity to be attended by surpassing blessings--E
ssentials for the attainment of the status of godhood -- The meaning of eternal lives--Plurality of wives acceptable only when commanded by the Lord--The sin of adultery--Commandment to Emma Smith, wife of the prophet.
1–6, Exaltation is gained through the new and everlasting covenant;
7–14, The terms and conditions of that covenant are set forth;
15–20, Celestial marriage and a continuation of the family unit enable men to become gods;
21–25, The strait and narrow way that leads to eternal lives;
26–27, Law given relative to blasphemy against the Holy Ghost;
28–39, Promises of eternal increase and exaltation made to prophets and saints in all ages;
40–47, Joseph Smith is given the power to bind and seal on earth and in heaven;
48–50, The Lord seals upon him his exaltation;
51–57, Emma Smith is counseled to be faithful and true;
58–66, Laws governing the plurality of wives are set forth.
Did you catch it? Celestial Marriage is Plurality of Wives! The Mormon Church has never, ever stopped practicing their law that applies to polygamy or plurality of wives as that is what Celestial Marriage (The New and Everlasting Covenant) is!
Did you notice that the marriage sealing ceremony not only continues the practice of polygamy, and, because of the covenant of the Law of Consecration, married you to the church and it's commandments by covenant, not each other?
Demand full disclosure for informed consent. You won't get it from the Mormon Church, so do your own research.
Know what you are doing, and what it really means!
Not one of us knew what we were going to promise by covenant before we went to the temple the first time. No one ever does. It is considered so sacred that it is not to be talked about.
The only part that meets the requirement of the law, that I can find is:
authority vested in me, I pronounce you ______, and ______, legally and lawfully husband and wife
Without that wording, the ceremony would not be legally binding in the US.
What we will do in the name of pleasing a God!
It was not until I left Mormonism, a few years ago, that I finally found out what I had done, and the meaning of the covenants, where they came from, and that we all had commited our lives to the Mormon Church and to Celestial Marriage which is plurity of wives!
It is long past time the Mormon Church started telling the truth and give full disclosure for informed consent.
Because of this lack of integrity on their part, I won't ever trust them again. The Mormon Church is not worthy of my love, trust, time, or service.
| I went through the temple without having the slightest idea of what I was about to hear, see, do, or promise---as many of you have done.
I cannot imagine buying a car, a computer, heck even a toaster without knowing the specs on it.
Yet, the Morg expects people to make promises as they go through it the first time....not even knowing what you are promising.....hells bells, they don't tell you jack shit about the reality of the church even when you are deep into it.
Heck, most of us may not even have found out about the lies until around the time we left.
And back in the 70's you were supposed to make signs of slitting your throat or disemboweling yourself and making this huge promise before your even knew what you were doing?
Or...even worse scenario....you are getting married, and you need to get through the ceremony so you can go get hitched, pictures taken, a reception, etc. A young bride knows that if she balks at making the sign she is just being shown, that it will be one horrible day....so do what they say, even though you just got a new name, slit your throat, professed to keep secrets --which you are not sure of their meaning---Ahhhhhhhhh......
The insanity of the whole temple ceremony in the 70's freaked me out BAD. i don't have any idea what they do today, but what they did back then was awful.
imagine the early years of the church where they had to promise to avenge the blood of JS. good hell, I am surprised that anybody stayed in the Morg.
| One of the greatest things about leaving the church is leaving the temple. Everything I dislike about the church is represented in the extreme at the temple. For example:
I could go on. Anyone have any to add?
- Exclusion from God's favor. Church doctrine won't let you into heaven if you aren't a behaving mormon. Well the temple won't even let you in the building that gets you to heaven if you're not a behaving mormon.
- Literal acceptance of Adam and Eve and the creation story. In church, they might mention it, but in the temple, you get to watch a really long movie all about it!
- The belief in a hateful Satan who hates us all and wants to destroy us. In church he's an occasional subject; in the temple, he's one of the stars of the show! And he gets to threaten you directly!
- The desire that everyone be the same. In the church you at least get to pick the color of your pants and tie. In the temple, it's all white!
- Kooky space doctrines. You might hear a word or two in hushed tones in Elder's Quorum, but in the temple you actually get to see God hanging out on Kolob itself!
- Lack of variety. At church if you get bored you can just get up and go hang out in the foyer for a while or start doodling. In the temple, all you can do is stare at Eve, wonder again how much she was really wearing when they filmed it, and fight to stay awake.
- The viel of silence around those who doubt. There's little room for dissent or doubt at church, and few ever admit to doubting. At the temple those same doubts are even harder to ignore, yet you're even less welcome to behave as though you have doubt. This is probably the worst one for me.
I can't say it enough: I'm so glad I'm never going back.
| So seems like "The Spirit" is having a bit of a time communicating with the Temple Committee of late.
Apparently the crew that did the last 4 temples managed to screw things up all royal like. The gold leaf that is put in the celestial rooms and on some of the (godawful) furniture was put on incorrectly. I was told that when gold leaf is put on, it's not just glued on, but rather put on with an electrical charge that actually imbeds it into the material. The crew that has been marching around gilding these temples only used 1/2 of the charge that should have been used and the shit is falling off. The cult members tried to glue it back on, but it just turned green.
the temples that were mentioned were in Samoa and Newport Beach. The others were not mentioned by name, but i'd guess the last 4 that were dedicated. This info comes from a member of the Temple Committee back from meetings in SLC over the weekend. Of course you understand why anon today - not that i even post that often. The "church" is really pissed at this turn of events he said.
Sooooo, now TSCC will be shutting down these temples for about a week to re-leaf the offending portions to the tune of OVER A MILLION of their precious tithing dollars. HA! Stupid Spirit! could have saved a lot of work and a lot of money, but he was to busy working out (The Spirit is SOOO STRONG).
| .....LUCIFER: Well, Adam, you have a new world here.
ADAM: A new world?
LUCIFER: Yes, a new world, patterned after the old one where we used to live.
ADAM: I know nothing about any other world.
LUCIFER: Oh, I see, your eyes are not yet opened. You have forgotten everything. You must eat some of the fruit of this tree.
(Lucifer plucks two pieces of fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, and presents it to Adam.)
LUCIFER: Adam, here is some of the fruit of that tree. It will make you wise.
ADAM: I will not partake of that fruit. Father told me that in the day I should partake of it I should surely die.
LUCIFER: You shall not surely die but shall be as the Gods, knowing good and evil.
ADAM: I will not partake of it.
LUCIFER: Oh you will not? Well, we shall see.
(Adam leaves, and Lucifer walks over to Eve, who is tending flowers.)
LUCIFER: Eve, here is some of the fruit of that tree. It will make you wise. It is delicious to the taste and very desirable.
EVE: Who are you?
LUCIFER: I am your brother.
EVE: You, my brother, and come here to persuade me to disobey Father?
LUCIFER: I have said nothing about Father. I want you to eat of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, that your eyes may be opened, for that is the way Father gained his knowledge. You must eat of this fruit so as to comprehend that everything has its opposite: good and evil, virtue and vice, light and darkness, health and sickness, pleasure and pain; and thus your eyes will be opened and you will have knowledge.
EVE: Is there no other way?
LUCIFER: There is no other way.
EVE: Then I will partake.
(Eve takes the fruit from Lucifer, and bites it. Lucifer approves and places the other piece in her hand, which he closes around it and pats gently.)
LUCIFER:; There, now go and get Adam to partake.
(Eve approaches Adam, fruit in hand, and presents it to him with a persuasive tone of voice.)
EVE: Adam, here is some of the fruit of that tree. It is delicious to the taste and very desirable.
ADAM: Eve, do you know what fruit that is?
EVE: Yes, it is the fruit if the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.
ADAM: I cannot partake of it. Do you not know that Father commanded us not to partake of the fruit of that tree?
EVE: Do you intend to obey all of Father's commandments?
ADAM: Yes, all of them.
EVE: Do you not recollect that Father commanded us to multiply and replenish the earth? I have partaken of this fruit and by so doing shall be cast out, and you will be left a lone man in the garden of Eden.
ADAM: Eve, I see that this must be so. I will partake that man may be.
(Adam takes a bite, and Lucifer walks to their side with a look of approval.)
LUCIFER: That is right.
EVE: It is better for us to pass through sorrow that we may know the good from the evil.
EVE: I know thee now. Thou art Lucifer, he who was cast out of Father's presence for rebellion.
LUCIFER: Yes, you are beginning to see already.
ADAM: What is that apron you have on?
LUCIFER: It is an emblem of my power and Priesthoods.
LUCIFER: Yes, Priesthoods.
ADAM: I am looking for Father to come down to give us further instructions.
LUCIFER: Oh, you are looking for Father to come down, are you?
(The Gods' voices are suddenly heard in the garden, reverberating through the air.)
ELOHIM: Jehovah, we promised Adam that we would visit him and give him further instructions. Come, let us go down.
JEHOVAH: We will go down, Elohim.
ADAM: I hear their voices, they are coming.
LUCIFER: See, you are naked. Take some fig leaves and make you aprons. Father will see your nakedness. Quick! Hide!
ADAM: Come, let us hide.
NARRATOR: Brethren and sisters, put on your aprons...."
OMG, cant believe I actually took part in that hilarious apron ceremony in the temple!!
| Even as a True Believing Mormon, I often wondered about the temple endowment and how it could possibly make sense.
Here was my list of questions about the temple endowment:
1. Why are the days of creation different than those recorded in the Book of Moses and Genesis? The third and fourth days are backwards in the endowment ceremony.
2. In the Mormon scripture Book of Moses 3:15-25 it says that God commanded the man (Adam) not to eat from the tree of good and evil. God didn't command the woman, because she had not been created yet. So why is the endowment film different than the Mormon scriptural account?
3. How did Peter, James and John get bodies before they were born? Peter shakes Adam's hand, so we know they weren't spirits. According to Joseph Smith's handshake test for discerning evil spirits from good spirits, Peter should have refused to shake Adam's hand (unless he had been resurrected).
4. Satan wears an apron that he says is a symbol of his power and priesthood. Why then does Adam, Eve and the temple congregation moments later obey Satan when he commands them to put on aprons?
5. How could Jesus be on the right hand of God, in physical form looking like his identical twin, when Jesus had not been born or resurrected yet? Jesus says in the Bible and BoM that he wasn't perfected until AFTER the atonement.
6. So was Lucifer a snake as it says in the scriptures, or a man like it shows in the temple?
7. Lucifer picks the apple off the tree and gives it to Eve. But Lucifer doesn't have a body! What's up with that?
8. Where did Lucifer get his preacher that was preaching to Adam and Eve? Was he for real or just a ghost? If just a ghost, why was he dressed as a protestant minister with the collar for Adam and Eve to see?
9a. The Book of Abraham as well as the modern prophets have taught us that the earth was created around the star Kolob. It orbited God's solar system until AFTER the fall, when it was hurled through space and placed in this solar system. This scriptural doctrine contradicts the endowment, where we see the creation of the moon and it mentions our sun and the other planets too. (See http://www.i4m.com/think/lists/mormon...)
9b. If the Kolob doctrine is true, why is this not included in the endowment, which is supposed to be the "Lord's University"?
9c. Why go through the creation story if it is not true and contradicts Mormon doctrine and the Book of Abraham?
10. If the endowment is actual history, then why was it so radically changed in April 1990? Whole sections were altered and others deleted! If the endowment represented real history, how could it change? Was it not true to the actual events all along? Is the new version "more true to history?" (See: http://www.i4m.com/think/temples/temp...)
11. In April 1990 the covenants and penalties of the endowment ceremony also changed dramatically. Didn't Jesus say in the scriptures that a sign of false churches is that they change his covenants?
12. Where do you find a clear description of these "laws' mentioned in the temple?
Some of those laws that temple patrons covenant to obey are never mentioned or explained outside the temple. If they are literal laws of God that must be obeyed, why are they not all clearly identified and expounded upon in church discourse?
- Law of Obedience
- Law of Sacrifice
- Law of Elohim
- Law of the Lord
- Law of the Gospel
- Law of Chastity
- Law of Consecration
13. What is the difference between "legally" and "lawfully" as said in the temple endowment covenant?
14. Adam raises his arms in the "true order of prayer", and who answers his prayer? Satan. Does this mean Satan can answer even prayers given in the "true order" ordained by God? What prayer is safe from not being intercepted by Satan? (See: http://helpingmormons.org/compare.htm)
15 Did God really send Peter, James and John down to earth and give Adam and Eve those silly temple clothes to wear? They didn't have a temple, so when did Adam and Eve wear them?
16. How could Peter, James and John be involved in the whole thing when they hadn't been born yet, hadn't been baptized and had not been through the temple? They weren't wearing garments themselves, so how could they be worthy to participate in the endowment events?
17. Temple workers stand is as proxys for Elohim and Jehovah during the ceremony, which makes it very sacred. But since someone also stands in as a literal proxy for Satan, doesn't that make the temple unholy?
18. What is the purpose of learning the "true order of prayer" if it can never be practiced outside of the temple ceremony?
19. Why does God require secret handshakes, names and passwords to pass through the veil and enter his presence? Can't God look into our hearts and know whether or not we are worthy?
20. Why are temple patrons required to make death oaths, when they are expressly forbidden by God in Mormon scripture? (see: http://www.i4m.com/think/temples/temp...)
20. If the endowment is centered on Jesus Christ, why isn't Christ's two top commandments included in the endowment covenants - love God and love your neighbor? Why isn't there mention of Christ's sermon on the mount or other teachings on charity and compassion?
Did anyone else wonder about this stuff before you realized the whole thing was a fraud?
Did you have other temple questions as a TBM that I missed?
| A woman I know endured a horrible Mormon marriage for years that I won't elaborate on. On the outside, though, people thought they were the perfect TBM family and hubby was (and still is) the world's biggest hypocrite and people thought he was future GA material (but he boinked other women before, during and after their marriage--just lied about it).
When their first child was on a mission wife meets a non-mormon (call him Joe Blow) who was the first person who has paid her any attention in years and she has an affair. Because she felt so guilty, she left her husband and married Joe Blow the day after her divorce was final. Of course, she confessed the whole thing and was ex'd and the ward rallied around poor hubby (who you can't tell me wasn't thrilled that wife left him, but played the martyr card to the hilt).
So wife and Joe Blow are married a couple of years but it doesn't work. She moves on, moves to Utah, gets re-baptized and has her temple blessings restored, and is just doing the Utah singles scene and trying to be a good single TBM. She figures she can put her past behind her.
So she moves into a new ward and gets a call from the bishop asking to meet her and interview her. Early in the interview, the bishop says, "So tell me about Joe Blow." She didn't know where Bishop got Joe's name because he was never a member of the church. Well, the Bishop tells her that on her membership records there is a notation that says "do not allow member to be sealed to Joe Blow."
He said they make those notations because there is a rule that says if a person is ex'd for a moral sin, they can never be sealed in the temple to the person they sinned with (whether they marry that person, whether that person was a member of the church at the time of the sin or anything. It can never happen.) Apparently this is the only reason that a person is ever forbidden from being sealed to any other specific person.
So even though Joe Blow is history, it will always be on her record. Every time she moves into a new ward, the bishop will know she had an affair and was ex'd--even 50 years down the road. Bishops will feel they have a right to bring it up and grill her about her former sinful past. She can tell them until she's blue in the face that she doesn't know where Joe Blow is, doesn't have any contact with him, will never be married to him again, etc. But they will never take that notation off her records, they have to make sure she doesn't think she can ever get around the system.
In other words, she'll wear the scarlet A for the rest of her life.
Has anyone else ever heard of such a rule? Any former bishops know if this is common? Even if Joe Blow had joined the church and they'd lived happily ever after, would they not have been allowed to be sealed?
| I don't know about the rest of you, but I never felt comfortable in the temple in the required clothing, and especially not in that silly initiatory tunic rag.
Here we were, dressed up in awful clothing that we would never be caught in outside the temple, and somehow, this was sacred clothing and we were anointed to be a priestess to our husbands?
What was wrong with that picture?
I was so annoyed with the silliness of the clothing that I made my own dress with pull up sleeves that a were, at least, somewhat stylish for the times.
The temple garb has to be some of the most ridiculous outfits.
If you rented your clothing, you got a nurses uniform, usually a size too large, and white stockings that went over those long white garments that went to your ankles and wrists. We looked like orphans from a foreign country and nobody batted an eye!
The only thing that made it palatable was that everyone else looked as silly and ridiculous as I did!
I still look back and laugh at the goofy things I used to do as a Mormon thinking it was some kind of sacred special requirement for salvation.
All I have to say is that Eloheim - Heavenly Father didn't have any fashion sense with all that so called inspiration !
| It disturbs me a great deal to hear the present generation of TBMs claim that certain aspects of the temple ceremony that have now been removed are just "enemy rumors." They are not.
So for all you TBM lurkers, here's my "witness," for the record, in re: now deleted parts of the endowment. I was endowed in the SLC Temple in 1973; new name, Job. Washing and anointing was done completely nude, with the initiate covered only in a poncho-like "shield." The ordinance worker told me the completely nude aspect was key, because, not ever being comfortable barefoot, I proceeded to the washing and anointing stall in standard issue white slippers, after donning the shield. He sent me back to my locker to remove the white slippers before he would continue.
The oath and covenant of the 1st, 2nd and 3rd tokens of the Melchezidek Priesthood were made by drawing the extended thumb of the right hand quickly across my throat, chest, and abdomen, respectively. These actions were accompanied by the oath that rather than reveal the respective token, "I would suffer my life to be taken." The narration spoken by the leader of the endowment session (play-acting the role of the New Testament Apostle Peter) was that these actions represented ways "in which life could be taken."
In that period we wore the "old style" garment in the temple; it reached to the wrists and ankles, was finished with a wide, Eton type collar around the neck, and was tied with three sets of strings down the front. The crotch was fully open. Utah Mormons used to call these "ceremonial" or "session" garments, but they were actually the garments worn by all endowed members, at all times, prior to the modification made by Heber J. Grant in the 1930's. The so-called Fundamentalist Mormons still wear this style of garment.
Also, part of the endowment at that time, now removed, was a "preacher" coming out at a certain point, who represented the "teachings of men, mingled with scripture." The preacher was a buffoonish character who proceeded to give a clownish and mocking rendition of the Christian doctrine of the Trinity. In a film version of the endowment used in the same era, the preacher was played by Spencer J. Palmer, a professor at BYU and later a friend and colleague of mine. This deliberate mocking of a central aspect of Christian Faith illustrated, and continues to illustrate, the non-Christian, and even anti-Christian, aspect of Mormonism. It also gives the lie to their constant claims of "innocent persecution," as well as their present "we're Christians too" posturing.
Those are things I know first hand. Second hand, much older TBMs at the time confirmed to me the Oath of Vengeance; an expanded, even more ridiculous role for the "preacher," including the singing of a Protestant-style hymn by all present; "Satan" wearing a top hat and masonic apron, both in the style of the presiding officer in a Master Mason's lodge; and a real "flaming sword" being used at the "let cherubim and flaming sword" order to protect the tree of life. The death oaths accompanying the signs and tokens of the Melchezidek priesthood were also even more graphic. They were, in fact, the words that are still used in the Blue Lodge Masonic ceremony today: briefly, "my tongue to be torn out," "my heart to be torn from my breast," "my entrails to be spilled."
There's a lot more, but you can see the pattern. TBM's, you've been lied to about your most recent history. What then, will you make of the whole Joe Smith history you've been told?
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